6 ms·

Agreed, it's important to have community.

by fwip 7y ago

Circuits 7y ago
Okay but religion and church aren't a necessary component for community.
- penagwin 7y ago
  I'm not religious, but I certainly think there's value in large groups of people with similar interests meeting in a positive environment.
- blotter_paper 7y ago
  I think that a bunch of basic social functions started out as religious and are now carried out by atheists and the like (marriages, potlatches, etc.). In a pre-scientific world, everything was religious. What is a church but community and religion? If we can strip the religion from marriage, why not church? I know atheists who attend Unitarian Universalist churches for the community (and my parents took me as a kid, my dad an atheist and my mom a mushy-not-really-religious-but-believes-in-somethingist). It's not for me, but that's probably a social issue related to how I respond to those sorts of groups and not really related to religion. Secular churches do exist.
  - Circuits 7y ago
    In my experience (15 years or so) most people who attended my church didn't rush home or spend any time outside of church worshiping/praising their god. Even when I was at church, outside of the sermon, no one was talking about god or religion. Hell.. in my experience, with my religion, most people have never even read the book that the religion was based off of and knew very little about it when quizzed and yes I did quiz them from time to time. So, aside from a few outliers, I have always been under the impression that most people attending church get far more enjoyment from the social aspects than the religious ones.
    - tathougies 7y ago
      My experience is the complete opposite. Of course there's the social aspect, but almost every family had their own devotions they did outside of church. I remember clearly our teachers asking everyone in our class of 30+ in Catholic school to share our family's family-specific religious traditions. I think coming from a tradition rich with symbolism and tangible activities as devotions (Catholicism) helps with that.
    - humanrebar 7y ago
      > I have always been under the impression that most people attending church get far more enjoyment from the social aspects than the religious ones You were clearly not a Pentacostal then.
FabHK 7y ago
It is very important to have community. However, church is but one way to achieve that (others are good city planning, with pedestrian oriented small town centres; a strong secular society with institutions and clubs supporting hobbies and sports, etc.) The problem with the church as the main provider of community (and values) is (at least) twofold: 1. It tends to impose some bad values with the good values (not to mention bad epistemology and ontology), and, 2. when people notice that and leave church, they a) also lose their community (which can be devastating), and b) sometimes throw out the good values with the bad.
- toasterlovin 7y ago
  The problems you've described are problems with all human organizations, not just churches/religions.
  - FabHK 7y ago
    1. Few human organisations nowadays promote values as bad as most religions. 2. You can be a member of several overlapping organizations, but only one church, normally. So, the problem of losing a community is exacerbated with church.
    - toasterlovin 7y ago
      > 1. Few human organisations nowadays promote values as bad as most religions. It sounds like your mind is inhabited by a caricature of religion, rather than a realistic conception of the thing. For instance, our neighborhood church uses their facilities to provide (secular) services to the local community. They also organize a monthly service day where community members (not just their congregation) provide help to people in need. Many other churches do similar things. And there is a reason why so many hospitals in the U.S. have religious names: they were started by churches. If you want to hold religion to account for the bad that they contribute, you also have to give them credit for the good. And I think once you start doing that, you'll find that it's all pretty much a wash.
      - 7y ago

Agreed, it's important to have community.

by fwip 7y ago

Agreed, it's important to have community.

Circuits 7y ago

Okay but religion and church aren't a necessary component for community.

penagwin 7y ago
I'm not religious, but I certainly think there's value in large groups of people with similar interests meeting in a positive environment.
blotter_paper 7y ago
I think that a bunch of basic social functions started out as religious and are now carried out by atheists and the like (marriages, potlatches, etc.). In a pre-scientific world, everything was religious. What is a church but community and religion? If we can strip the religion from marriage, why not church? I know atheists who attend Unitarian Universalist churches for the community (and my parents took me as a kid, my dad an atheist and my mom a mushy-not-really-religious-but-believes-in-somethingist). It's not for me, but that's probably a social issue related to how I respond to those sorts of groups and not really related to religion. Secular churches do exist.
- Circuits 7y ago
  In my experience (15 years or so) most people who attended my church didn't rush home or spend any time outside of church worshiping/praising their god. Even when I was at church, outside of the sermon, no one was talking about god or religion. Hell.. in my experience, with my religion, most people have never even read the book that the religion was based off of and knew very little about it when quizzed and yes I did quiz them from time to time. So, aside from a few outliers, I have always been under the impression that most people attending church get far more enjoyment from the social aspects than the religious ones.
  - tathougies 7y ago
    My experience is the complete opposite. Of course there's the social aspect, but almost every family had their own devotions they did outside of church. I remember clearly our teachers asking everyone in our class of 30+ in Catholic school to share our family's family-specific religious traditions. I think coming from a tradition rich with symbolism and tangible activities as devotions (Catholicism) helps with that.
  - humanrebar 7y ago
    > I have always been under the impression that most people attending church get far more enjoyment from the social aspects than the religious ones You were clearly not a Pentacostal then.

FabHK 7y ago

It is very important to have community. However, church is but one way to achieve that (others are good city planning, with pedestrian oriented small town centres; a strong secular society with institutions and clubs supporting hobbies and sports, etc.) The problem with the church as the main provider of community (and values) is (at least) twofold: 1. It tends to impose some bad values with the good values (not to mention bad epistemology and ontology), and, 2. when people notice that and leave church, they a) also lose their community (which can be devastating), and b) sometimes throw out the good values with the bad.

toasterlovin 7y ago
The problems you've described are problems with all human organizations, not just churches/religions.
- FabHK 7y ago
  1. Few human organisations nowadays promote values as bad as most religions. 2. You can be a member of several overlapping organizations, but only one church, normally. So, the problem of losing a community is exacerbated with church.
  - toasterlovin 7y ago
    > 1. Few human organisations nowadays promote values as bad as most religions. It sounds like your mind is inhabited by a caricature of religion, rather than a realistic conception of the thing. For instance, our neighborhood church uses their facilities to provide (secular) services to the local community. They also organize a monthly service day where community members (not just their congregation) provide help to people in need. Many other churches do similar things. And there is a reason why so many hospitals in the U.S. have religious names: they were started by churches. If you want to hold religion to account for the bad that they contribute, you also have to give them credit for the good. And I think once you start doing that, you'll find that it's all pretty much a wash.
    - 7y ago