5 ms·

Why is that sensitive data? I am going to be a tad provocative here and hope people can dig deep and think about this :) Facebook already has this, and most pe

by bwb 7y ago

Why is that sensitive data? I am going to be a tad provocative here and hope people can dig deep and think about this :) Facebook already has this, and most people are sharing this in the public sphere. I understand the worry and damage that can be done, but I feel like we are moving from a 1950s model of hide it all and pretend you a perfect, to more of a this is who I am and let me live my life as long as it doesn't hurt others or society.

SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
> It seems like that is just a response to society needing to be more accepting, aka us to be more accepting of who people really are. Well yes, but until that time, and even during that time, I don't want that revealed. I have a friend who's working somewhere that would probably be entirely welcoming of his orientation, but he keeps it secret because it's his choice and he still has fears about what would happen if it's revealed.
danso 7y ago
I’m sorry, I usually expect these threads to turn into “but Orwell!” vs “but what do you have to hide?”, but this is the first time I can remember (at least on HN) in which a thread so quickly jumped to “but why should your sexual orientation not be for the public to know?” It’s great that you are in a situation where you believe you are able to publicize your sexual identity without detrimental consequences. But it is the height of arrogance to presume that everyone else must have the same life situation that you do.
- bwb 7y ago
  Sigh, I don't assume that and I know it is not from many experiences. My point is a lot of these seems to be a fear-based response driving extreme privacy reactions. I want a measured response that recognizes that data is hugely powerful in improving society, and we need strong regulations to protect both sides. This extreme privacy movement annoys the hell out of me. And, it is really strong on HN.
  - inetknght 7y ago
    > My point is a lot of these seems to be a fear-based response driving extreme privacy reactions. What world do you live in where fear is unreasonable? The world is not the happy place that you very clearly think it is. I have personal friends and family who have very legitimate reasons to demand enforced privacy. People who've been abused by others; who've been abused by people who have made serious threats against livelihoods. People whose opinions are different from those around them would be at significant risk to life, limb, and sanity if those opinions were to become known by others. > I want a measured response that recognizes that data is hugely powerful in improving society > This extreme privacy movement annoys the hell out of me. And, it is really strong on HN. * You need to recognize that data is also hugely powerful in destroying it too. I think many on HN are able to and have recognized this. > and we need strong regulations to protect both sides. I agree; but I think the regulations and enforcement should absolutely err on the side of the user if there is ever a disagreement between the two.
    - bwb 7y ago
      I agree with most of that. I think we are closer than you think on this. I do recognize the power of data, but I am tired of this communities inability to conceive that this data is and can be used for good.
      - JohnFen 7y ago
        > I am tired of this communities inability to conceive that this data is and can be used for good. I don't see any inability to recognize that. What I see is is a recognition that "data can be a powerful force for good" is not a valid argument for why people should be forced to reveal that data.
        bwb 7y ago
        You are not being forced to reveal anything, that data might not be your data and thus not your decision to reveal aspects of it.
wool_gather 7y ago
Yes. But. We haven't actually achieved that state of grace yet, so in the meantime, in some times and places people actually can be in danger because of who they are. Perhaps you have seen the names Muhlaysia Booker or Jamal Kashoggi in the news recently.
- bwb 7y ago
  Yes, and I have lived in some of those places. I understand these concerns very well.
  - mixmastamyk 7y ago
    Then it follows you'll want to stop making critical and naïve comments of those that need and want the choice to protect themselves.
mixmastamyk 7y ago
That's a very naïve and privileged position. It boils down to "I don't have a problem, so no one else does." You'll probably learn one day you are more vulnerable than you realize. Pick up a history book in the meantime.
- bwb 7y ago
  It is and I am an old history major so yes I am aware :). I am not advocating for a total loss of privacy, merely that it is is a spectrum, and technology seems to be driving an acceleration of what is socially acceptable. And, that might be a good thing long term. How do you change people's acceptance of things they are afraid of? You show them they don't need to be. You don't do that by hiding and pretending you are something else. You show them that you are x and y and still a good normal person. It can get you killed, it can lose your jobs, it can lose you friends, it can lose you your family. It is an incredible sacrifice that millions of people in the USA make every year. They do it for themselves, but also for all the other people that are x or y and who they want to see raised without all that bullshit.
  - mixmastamyk 7y ago
    Feel free to run to the front of the battle and take the arrows for the rest of us. Chiding others for not sacrificing themselves to boost corporate profits is a shitty thing to do. I also don't believe you've thought through all the failure modes and misaligned incentives that happen over time. Not wanting to live in a "1984" dystopia is not extreme by any means.
    - bwb 7y ago
      I am not chiding in any way, I apologize as my point must have not been well written if that is how it landed. Sorry :( We are not in 1984, and that is fiction. I fully acknowledge I have not fully thought through every branch of the problem, but what I don't want to see is this idea that all data is at the hands of the person who played a role in creating it. Some data needs to go back to the company and society if it serves a solid purpose in helping improve either.
scalio 7y ago
You should check out what happened less than a century ago. Among other things, it started this whole digital conundrum. It's naive to think that concentrating so much power over so many people in the hands of so few people can go any sort of well. What happens when the regulators, or the ones charged of overseeing them, want in on the fun? What if they're coerced, which suddenly is trivial to do? Progress comes from individuals, as such, individuals should be empowered by great tools to make the most of their data. Wanting corporations to solve all the problems is another case of pushing off personal responsibility.

by bwb 7y ago

SketchySeaBeast 7y ago

> It seems like that is just a response to society needing to be more accepting, aka us to be more accepting of who people really are. Well yes, but until that time, and even during that time, I don't want that revealed. I have a friend who's working somewhere that would probably be entirely welcoming of his orientation, but he keeps it secret because it's his choice and he still has fears about what would happen if it's revealed.

danso 7y ago

I’m sorry, I usually expect these threads to turn into “but Orwell!” vs “but what do you have to hide?”, but this is the first time I can remember (at least on HN) in which a thread so quickly jumped to “but why should your sexual orientation not be for the public to know?” It’s great that you are in a situation where you believe you are able to publicize your sexual identity without detrimental consequences. But it is the height of arrogance to presume that everyone else must have the same life situation that you do.

bwb 7y ago
Sigh, I don't assume that and I know it is not from many experiences. My point is a lot of these seems to be a fear-based response driving extreme privacy reactions. I want a measured response that recognizes that data is hugely powerful in improving society, and we need strong regulations to protect both sides. This extreme privacy movement annoys the hell out of me. And, it is really strong on HN.
- inetknght 7y ago
  > My point is a lot of these seems to be a fear-based response driving extreme privacy reactions. What world do you live in where fear is unreasonable? The world is not the happy place that you very clearly think it is. I have personal friends and family who have very legitimate reasons to demand enforced privacy. People who've been abused by others; who've been abused by people who have made serious threats against livelihoods. People whose opinions are different from those around them would be at significant risk to life, limb, and sanity if those opinions were to become known by others. > I want a measured response that recognizes that data is hugely powerful in improving society > This extreme privacy movement annoys the hell out of me. And, it is really strong on HN. * You need to recognize that data is also hugely powerful in destroying it too. I think many on HN are able to and have recognized this. > and we need strong regulations to protect both sides. I agree; but I think the regulations and enforcement should absolutely err on the side of the user if there is ever a disagreement between the two.
  - bwb 7y ago
    I agree with most of that. I think we are closer than you think on this. I do recognize the power of data, but I am tired of this communities inability to conceive that this data is and can be used for good.
    - JohnFen 7y ago
      > I am tired of this communities inability to conceive that this data is and can be used for good. I don't see any inability to recognize that. What I see is is a recognition that "data can be a powerful force for good" is not a valid argument for why people should be forced to reveal that data.
      - bwb 7y ago
        You are not being forced to reveal anything, that data might not be your data and thus not your decision to reveal aspects of it.

wool_gather 7y ago

Yes. But. We haven't actually achieved that state of grace yet, so in the meantime, in some times and places people actually can be in danger because of who they are. Perhaps you have seen the names Muhlaysia Booker or Jamal Kashoggi in the news recently.

bwb 7y ago
Yes, and I have lived in some of those places. I understand these concerns very well.
- mixmastamyk 7y ago
  Then it follows you'll want to stop making critical and naïve comments of those that need and want the choice to protect themselves.

mixmastamyk 7y ago

That's a very naïve and privileged position. It boils down to "I don't have a problem, so no one else does." You'll probably learn one day you are more vulnerable than you realize. Pick up a history book in the meantime.

bwb 7y ago
It is and I am an old history major so yes I am aware :). I am not advocating for a total loss of privacy, merely that it is is a spectrum, and technology seems to be driving an acceleration of what is socially acceptable. And, that might be a good thing long term. How do you change people's acceptance of things they are afraid of? You show them they don't need to be. You don't do that by hiding and pretending you are something else. You show them that you are x and y and still a good normal person. It can get you killed, it can lose your jobs, it can lose you friends, it can lose you your family. It is an incredible sacrifice that millions of people in the USA make every year. They do it for themselves, but also for all the other people that are x or y and who they want to see raised without all that bullshit.
- mixmastamyk 7y ago
  Feel free to run to the front of the battle and take the arrows for the rest of us. Chiding others for not sacrificing themselves to boost corporate profits is a shitty thing to do. I also don't believe you've thought through all the failure modes and misaligned incentives that happen over time. Not wanting to live in a "1984" dystopia is not extreme by any means.
  - bwb 7y ago
    I am not chiding in any way, I apologize as my point must have not been well written if that is how it landed. Sorry :( We are not in 1984, and that is fiction. I fully acknowledge I have not fully thought through every branch of the problem, but what I don't want to see is this idea that all data is at the hands of the person who played a role in creating it. Some data needs to go back to the company and society if it serves a solid purpose in helping improve either.

scalio 7y ago

You should check out what happened less than a century ago. Among other things, it started this whole digital conundrum. It's naive to think that concentrating so much power over so many people in the hands of so few people can go any sort of well. What happens when the regulators, or the ones charged of overseeing them, want in on the fun? What if they're coerced, which suddenly is trivial to do? Progress comes from individuals, as such, individuals should be empowered by great tools to make the most of their data. Wanting corporations to solve all the problems is another case of pushing off personal responsibility.