6 ms·

Semantics :), the device created the data, they played a role but I don't see why that means they control it. If the data plays a role in improving services or

by bwb 7y ago

Semantics :), the device created the data, they played a role but I don't see why that means they control it. If the data plays a role in improving services or life for everyone let the data serve its role. We still need strong regulations and gov agencies to enforce/protect, but I just don't see the point of claiming everything is your data blah blah.

danso 7y ago
If the device is the primary contributor in terms of “creating the data”, then why are users needed? The users and their personal behavior and usage metrics are obviously the valuable part of the data — not the device that logs and measures the data. Also, (though I’m sure there’s “semantic” nuance in this too), the users are the ones who pay to possess and maintain the data-creating device.
- bwb 7y ago
  It is a symbiotic relationship :) I do not think just because you are involved in creating data that means it is yours. When you give data to the census that isn't your data... when you click an ad and buy something that data isn't your data... I just don't get this notion that data is yours because you are involved in its creation. There is data about you that might be private or personal and should have protections, but the notion that data you have a role in creating is yours seems extreme.
  - inetknght 7y ago
    > It is a symbiotic relationship :) What you are saying is that users don't have a choice in the matter.
    - judge2020 7y ago
      The choice is "you can choose not to form that relationship [with that vehicle]" (choose not to drive, or purchase a "dumb" car that still has a backup camera and blind spot monitor)
      - inetknght 7y ago
        > or purchase a "dumb" car that still has a backup camera and blind spot monitor I think this choice will be removed within my lifetime.
  - danso 7y ago
    So the Census is enshrined in the Constitution, ostensibly because it would be impossible (pragmatically speaking) to facilitate a representative democracy without an accurate population count. I don’t think it’s productive to go off on a tangent about the legitimacy of the U.S. Constitution, unless you actually believe that corporations should be afforded the same role and mandate as the federal govt (in which case, hoo boy, I have no interest in following the rabbit hole of your thinking. “It’s a symbiotic relationship” Sorry, you’ll have to do a bit better than that. Many of us are old enough to have owned and driven vehicles quite well with no automated telemetry. The same can’t be said for account-based online social networks, which have always required user data to fundamentally function.
  - JohnFen 7y ago
    > the notion that data you have a role in creating is yours seems extreme. The notion that it's OK for me to be forced to send such data to others seems extreme to me.
    - bwb 7y ago
      Like I said, you are not being forced, it isn't your data to start with is a different POV to approach this from. You are stuck in the mindset that because you are somehow related to the data you get ownership.
      - JohnFen 7y ago
        > Like I said, you are not being forced I don't know why you say this, though, when you are arguing that I should be. > because you are somehow related to the data you get ownership. In the absence of a compelling reason otherwise, I demand such ownership.
        bwb 7y ago
        I just don't get why you think that data is yours. I don't see that data as anyway owned by you, you might have rights to aspects of it, but in no way can you demand ownership over something you don't own.
        JohnFen 7y ago
        > I just don't get why you think that data is yours. Because it is data about me that I'm generating personally, on my own personal equipment. That data is literally nobody else's business unless I choose to share it.
      - lutorm 7y ago
        How about the POV that if I buy the device, I decide what the device does? This is a fundamental property right. You may argue that the data created isn't "mine", but I would argue that it is absolutely my data if it is created by a device I own. The fact that someone else manufactured the device doesn't give them some sort of retained ownership once they sell it to me.
inetknght 7y ago
> the device created the data, they played a role but I don't see why that means they control it The user owns the device. Full stop.
- bwb 7y ago
  Owning a device is not owning the data. Full stop :)
  - inetknght 7y ago
    You are wrong.
    - bwb 7y ago
      Neither of us is wrong :), but neither of us is probably right. Your full stop refusal to see the other side is worrisome to me. There are other viewpoints out there, I'd appreciate if you try to understand them. I understand yours but if you react with stubborn hostility, I will mirror it :)
      - inetknght 7y ago
        I can see how you might think I'm not seeing other viewpoints. Instead, perhaps you should see that I am rejecting other viewpoints. And I can see how it would worry you: your comments worry me too. So let me re-frame our conversation. Let me re-root it to something that I will not budge on: If I buy a device then I own the data on it. If I own a device then I own the data collected by it. If I own data, then I have every right to refuse to allow that data to be accessed by anyone other than myself. If you want access to the data to be a precondition of my use of the device, then do not pretend you sold the device to me. At best you are providing a lease.
        bwb 7y ago
        Yep, I understand what you are saying, what I am saying is that I do not agree with you :). I do not think buying a device means that the data it produces is solely yours to control/own. You are welcome to disagree with me :)
michaelt 7y ago
the device created the data, they played a role but I don't see why that means they control it. If I take a photo with my Canon camera, Canon doesn't own the photo even though they manufactured the device.
- bwb 7y ago
  Agreed. If the shutter fails to open to spec, would you want them to know about it and have data to improve it via a firmware update or next version of the product? Please read my post, and really read it :). I am not saying all data is theirs, I am saying it depends on the type of data and I don't want to see no data being shared.
  - yumraj 7y ago
    When an application, say a browser, crashes on my computer it asks whether I want to submit the crash log, and I decide whether or not I want to. I don't want the applications to continually send the data to the vendor. In your case, Canon will ask to look at your camera or ask for some log, you will give it to them by choice, they will look at it and find/fix the problem. There is no automatic implied approval just because I bought something from someone.
    - bwb 7y ago
      Yep I understand your POV, I don't always agree depending on the data being provided. I think in some cases a good case can be made you don't get that decision if it helps improve health outcomes or improves driving safty or so on. It is a hard line to draw, but I believe we can do it over the next 50 years as long as we don't draw a hard line that all data is mine.
  - JohnFen 7y ago
    > If the shutter fails to open to spec, would you want them to know about it and have data to improve it via a firmware update or next version of the product? Not without my explicit consent.
JohnFen 7y ago
> I don't see why that means they control it. It's my device, therefore I have every right to control who it's going to talk to and what it's going to say. > If the data plays a role in improving services or life for everyone let the data serve its role. Then let the manufacturers make that case to me as part of getting my consent to collect the data.

by bwb 7y ago

danso 7y ago

If the device is the primary contributor in terms of “creating the data”, then why are users needed? The users and their personal behavior and usage metrics are obviously the valuable part of the data — not the device that logs and measures the data. Also, (though I’m sure there’s “semantic” nuance in this too), the users are the ones who pay to possess and maintain the data-creating device.

bwb 7y ago
It is a symbiotic relationship :) I do not think just because you are involved in creating data that means it is yours. When you give data to the census that isn't your data... when you click an ad and buy something that data isn't your data... I just don't get this notion that data is yours because you are involved in its creation. There is data about you that might be private or personal and should have protections, but the notion that data you have a role in creating is yours seems extreme.
- inetknght 7y ago
  > It is a symbiotic relationship :) What you are saying is that users don't have a choice in the matter.
  - judge2020 7y ago
    The choice is "you can choose not to form that relationship [with that vehicle]" (choose not to drive, or purchase a "dumb" car that still has a backup camera and blind spot monitor)
    - inetknght 7y ago
      > or purchase a "dumb" car that still has a backup camera and blind spot monitor I think this choice will be removed within my lifetime.
- danso 7y ago
  So the Census is enshrined in the Constitution, ostensibly because it would be impossible (pragmatically speaking) to facilitate a representative democracy without an accurate population count. I don’t think it’s productive to go off on a tangent about the legitimacy of the U.S. Constitution, unless you actually believe that corporations should be afforded the same role and mandate as the federal govt (in which case, hoo boy, I have no interest in following the rabbit hole of your thinking. “It’s a symbiotic relationship” Sorry, you’ll have to do a bit better than that. Many of us are old enough to have owned and driven vehicles quite well with no automated telemetry. The same can’t be said for account-based online social networks, which have always required user data to fundamentally function.
- JohnFen 7y ago
  > the notion that data you have a role in creating is yours seems extreme. The notion that it's OK for me to be forced to send such data to others seems extreme to me.
  - bwb 7y ago
    Like I said, you are not being forced, it isn't your data to start with is a different POV to approach this from. You are stuck in the mindset that because you are somehow related to the data you get ownership.
    - JohnFen 7y ago
      > Like I said, you are not being forced I don't know why you say this, though, when you are arguing that I should be. > because you are somehow related to the data you get ownership. In the absence of a compelling reason otherwise, I demand such ownership.
      - bwb 7y ago
        I just don't get why you think that data is yours. I don't see that data as anyway owned by you, you might have rights to aspects of it, but in no way can you demand ownership over something you don't own.
        JohnFen 7y ago
        > I just don't get why you think that data is yours. Because it is data about me that I'm generating personally, on my own personal equipment. That data is literally nobody else's business unless I choose to share it.
    - lutorm 7y ago
      How about the POV that if I buy the device, I decide what the device does? This is a fundamental property right. You may argue that the data created isn't "mine", but I would argue that it is absolutely my data if it is created by a device I own. The fact that someone else manufactured the device doesn't give them some sort of retained ownership once they sell it to me.

inetknght 7y ago

> the device created the data, they played a role but I don't see why that means they control it The user owns the device. Full stop.

bwb 7y ago
Owning a device is not owning the data. Full stop :)
- inetknght 7y ago
  You are wrong.
  - bwb 7y ago
    Neither of us is wrong :), but neither of us is probably right. Your full stop refusal to see the other side is worrisome to me. There are other viewpoints out there, I'd appreciate if you try to understand them. I understand yours but if you react with stubborn hostility, I will mirror it :)
    - inetknght 7y ago
      I can see how you might think I'm not seeing other viewpoints. Instead, perhaps you should see that I am rejecting other viewpoints. And I can see how it would worry you: your comments worry me too. So let me re-frame our conversation. Let me re-root it to something that I will not budge on: If I buy a device then I own the data on it. If I own a device then I own the data collected by it. If I own data, then I have every right to refuse to allow that data to be accessed by anyone other than myself. If you want access to the data to be a precondition of my use of the device, then do not pretend you sold the device to me. At best you are providing a lease.
      - bwb 7y ago
        Yep, I understand what you are saying, what I am saying is that I do not agree with you :). I do not think buying a device means that the data it produces is solely yours to control/own. You are welcome to disagree with me :)

michaelt 7y ago

the device created the data, they played a role but I don't see why that means they control it. If I take a photo with my Canon camera, Canon doesn't own the photo even though they manufactured the device.

bwb 7y ago
Agreed. If the shutter fails to open to spec, would you want them to know about it and have data to improve it via a firmware update or next version of the product? Please read my post, and really read it :). I am not saying all data is theirs, I am saying it depends on the type of data and I don't want to see no data being shared.
- yumraj 7y ago
  When an application, say a browser, crashes on my computer it asks whether I want to submit the crash log, and I decide whether or not I want to. I don't want the applications to continually send the data to the vendor. In your case, Canon will ask to look at your camera or ask for some log, you will give it to them by choice, they will look at it and find/fix the problem. There is no automatic implied approval just because I bought something from someone.
  - bwb 7y ago
    Yep I understand your POV, I don't always agree depending on the data being provided. I think in some cases a good case can be made you don't get that decision if it helps improve health outcomes or improves driving safty or so on. It is a hard line to draw, but I believe we can do it over the next 50 years as long as we don't draw a hard line that all data is mine.
- JohnFen 7y ago
  > If the shutter fails to open to spec, would you want them to know about it and have data to improve it via a firmware update or next version of the product? Not without my explicit consent.

JohnFen 7y ago

> I don't see why that means they control it. It's my device, therefore I have every right to control who it's going to talk to and what it's going to say. > If the data plays a role in improving services or life for everyone let the data serve its role. Then let the manufacturers make that case to me as part of getting my consent to collect the data.