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I became interested in Georgist tax models a few years ago but at one point I came across something that didn't seem to be Georgist exactly but perhaps a later

I became interested in Georgist tax models a few years ago but at one point I came across something that didn't seem to be Georgist exactly but perhaps a later modification that seemed terrifying. The idea was that you were responsible to tell the tax authority what the taxable value of your land was. The catch was that anyone could come and (forcibly?) purchase the land at that price. It struck me as an incredibly dangerous and almost Orwellian version of the "make me move!" concept. You have to decide at what price you'd be willing to sell essentially and then you'd pay taxes on that assessed value. I found it deeply disturbing but I have never been able to find any additional information about the proposal. Of course I think we'll probably colonize Jupiter before we'd ever adopt a model like that in the U.S. but it really was fascinating to contemplate.

erentz 7y ago
Radical Markets chapter 1 [1]. It was a really interesting idea, I wanted to see more discussion on it, I don’t think it’s entirely without problems. Maybe cabals could form for example. [1] http://assets.press.princeton.edu/chapters/s11222.pdf http://assets.press.princeton.edu/chapters/s11222.pdf
opwieurposiu 7y ago
We have a model like that in racing sports, it's called a claiming race. If you enter a $500 claims race you better not spend more than 500 bucks on your car or else someone will buy it out from under you. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15365342/yes-24-hours-of-lemons-can-claim-your-car-for-500-but-probably-wont-heres-why/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15365342/yes-24-hours-of-...
- rtkwe 7y ago
  That model works way better on something that isn't as important or hard to move/replace as your home...
rabidrat 7y ago
That is a fascinating idea, and I think it would work for anything except a primary residence. (How can you tax "I'm 83 and will only leave in a coffin?") For everything else, particularly investment or rental properties, it seems like a perfect setup. Like bringing the dynamics of the stock market to the property market. For primary residences, maybe it could be a "half-tax" setup (with actual exemptions for people who would be devastated by moving). So you would actually claim twice the taxable value, and if some developer came along and actually offered the 2x, you would be delighted to take it.
- conanbatt 7y ago
  > (How can you tax "I'm 83 and will only leave in a coffin?") Easily. All the people that work on tax money that give value to that tax are not working for free. If you can pay them with sympathy it could work, but it won't.
- tonyedgecombe 7y ago
  I’m not sure you want to exclude those 83 year olds, especially if they are on their own in a family sized home.
conanbatt 7y ago
It's a fun idea, but i don't think its practical. There are other Georgist ideas that are more interesting, like preference voting. The idea is that tax expenditures affect people disproportionately, so for the spending to pass you hold a vote where yayers accept paying the nayers (or the economic equivalent, pay an extra tax and nayers pay less tax for the policy) so the law passes. For example, if SF wanted to improve golden gate park its a great benefit for people that live near the park, and great disservice to those away. If yayers paid the nayers, then they wouldnt get the benefit of taxing people that don't use the park. You could implement this on land taxes rather easily.
wcunning 7y ago
The version of that that I recall was from Heinlein's Number of the Beast. The detail he added in his version was that you could reassess your property at any time, but you had to pay 5 years of back taxes at the new value immediately. This means you can sit at a low value until someone comes along to buy you out, but you have to have the money set aside to avoid immediate purchase.
- dTal 7y ago
  This seems like an improvement - part of the what makes capitalism useful is information propagation. You don't know what the the true value of the land is until someone comes to buy you out (and even then, you don't really know - it's just a hint). But it perverts the process of sale negotiation in bizarre ways, coupled to the arbitrary 5 year requirement, which has great impact on the economics of it. Consider - if someone really wants to buy your land, and the only way you can say no is by re-valuing higher than their offer (with a big payout to the government), then a large player could force someone out of business with unreasonably high offers - and then pick up their land on the cheap from the liquidators. Every offer/counter-offer would have to backed by a contract to actually make the sale if the other party agrees, with the back taxes only paid when the sale is made. But then what happens when someone plain doesn't want to sell?
kqr2 7y ago
This was a "self enforcing property tax" implemented by the Greeks: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/08/self-enforcing.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/08/self-enforcin...

erentz 7y ago

Radical Markets chapter 1 [1]. It was a really interesting idea, I wanted to see more discussion on it, I don’t think it’s entirely without problems. Maybe cabals could form for example. [1] http://assets.press.princeton.edu/chapters/s11222.pdf http://assets.press.princeton.edu/chapters/s11222.pdf

opwieurposiu 7y ago

We have a model like that in racing sports, it's called a claiming race. If you enter a $500 claims race you better not spend more than 500 bucks on your car or else someone will buy it out from under you. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15365342/yes-24-hours-of-lemons-can-claim-your-car-for-500-but-probably-wont-heres-why/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15365342/yes-24-hours-of-...

rtkwe 7y ago
That model works way better on something that isn't as important or hard to move/replace as your home...

rabidrat 7y ago

That is a fascinating idea, and I think it would work for anything except a primary residence. (How can you tax "I'm 83 and will only leave in a coffin?") For everything else, particularly investment or rental properties, it seems like a perfect setup. Like bringing the dynamics of the stock market to the property market. For primary residences, maybe it could be a "half-tax" setup (with actual exemptions for people who would be devastated by moving). So you would actually claim twice the taxable value, and if some developer came along and actually offered the 2x, you would be delighted to take it.

conanbatt 7y ago
> (How can you tax "I'm 83 and will only leave in a coffin?") Easily. All the people that work on tax money that give value to that tax are not working for free. If you can pay them with sympathy it could work, but it won't.
tonyedgecombe 7y ago
I’m not sure you want to exclude those 83 year olds, especially if they are on their own in a family sized home.

conanbatt 7y ago

It's a fun idea, but i don't think its practical. There are other Georgist ideas that are more interesting, like preference voting. The idea is that tax expenditures affect people disproportionately, so for the spending to pass you hold a vote where yayers accept paying the nayers (or the economic equivalent, pay an extra tax and nayers pay less tax for the policy) so the law passes. For example, if SF wanted to improve golden gate park its a great benefit for people that live near the park, and great disservice to those away. If yayers paid the nayers, then they wouldnt get the benefit of taxing people that don't use the park. You could implement this on land taxes rather easily.

wcunning 7y ago

The version of that that I recall was from Heinlein's Number of the Beast. The detail he added in his version was that you could reassess your property at any time, but you had to pay 5 years of back taxes at the new value immediately. This means you can sit at a low value until someone comes along to buy you out, but you have to have the money set aside to avoid immediate purchase.

dTal 7y ago
This seems like an improvement - part of the what makes capitalism useful is information propagation. You don't know what the the true value of the land is until someone comes to buy you out (and even then, you don't really know - it's just a hint). But it perverts the process of sale negotiation in bizarre ways, coupled to the arbitrary 5 year requirement, which has great impact on the economics of it. Consider - if someone really wants to buy your land, and the only way you can say no is by re-valuing higher than their offer (with a big payout to the government), then a large player could force someone out of business with unreasonably high offers - and then pick up their land on the cheap from the liquidators. Every offer/counter-offer would have to backed by a contract to actually make the sale if the other party agrees, with the back taxes only paid when the sale is made. But then what happens when someone plain doesn't want to sell?

kqr2 7y ago

This was a "self enforcing property tax" implemented by the Greeks: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/08/self-enforcing.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/08/self-enforcin...