24 ms·

Men, commit to mentor women

59 points by r_singh 7y ago

devoply 7y ago
Most important thing in modern America is to protect yourself and your reputation from assault as a simple accusation can destroy your life and plenty of people lie. Some rhetoric is not going to change that fact.
- pas 7y ago
  No need to lie, it's enough if someone misunderstood the other and it got ugly (HR etc involved).
timavr 7y ago
Only in America. Women is very dangerous, be aware. On serious note, somebody should do a startup which trains men to work with women. Apparently opportunity is huge. Should be the first slide. 60% of all men...
- romanovcode 7y ago
  > which trains men to work with women. Immediately will be labeled as sexist and forced to close business. You can't win this battle, best way is to not play.
  - timavr 7y ago
    We can just go with euphemism, like “work comfort” and obviously we do it for all genders.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - inflatableDodo 7y ago
    Are you kidding? There's loads of this kind of thing out there already. Just call it something sickening like 'Workplace Wellness' and you are good. Though I think they should borrow one of the existing programs from the US military if they want to get the message through to certain people I have encountered in management. Having a drill seargent bellow at them about it not being ok to molest their secretary might actually work wonders.
    - timavr 7y ago
      We are getting close.
      - inflatableDodo 7y ago
        You bait and switch it as a military backed outdoor team-building exercise and wait till everyone is half way up a mountain and can't easily get away before getting a six and a half foot transexual marine to terrify them into understanding the concept of intersectionality.
        timavr 7y ago
        Lol. I like it.
        inflatableDodo 7y ago
        Do you think I have much of a future in HR consultancy?
        timavr 7y ago
        Yes. On serious note, it is huge opportunity even as non VC scale biz. It is infinite in nature. I think the problem lies in gender education in schools and colleges, where people get lost in transition to adult life. Like hitting on everyone/anyone in college is fair game because there is no power differential, but as soon as people enter workforce, they need to be retrained.
        inflatableDodo 7y ago
        I think the problem could be solved by a rule of no hitting on anyone in the workplace and much shorter working hours. People get horny. If you lock them up in the workplace for their entire waking life you are going to have some fairly predictable issues.
- WeirdFlexButOky 7y ago
  No training needed, just treat us like fellow human beings. It's not a high bar.
- CompanionCuuube 7y ago
  What about a supervisor body cam startup? There are a small number of bad individuals which the system would allow you to identify while protecting the innocent ones from false accusations.
fuckamerica 7y ago
too much me2
xupybd 7y ago
It’s a simple risk reward call. There is far more risk of accidentally crossing the line with the opposite sex. Yes MeToo has shed light on a lot and no doubt been a net positive but there will be a time until the dust settles and people learn how to work together safely. We no longer have a good formal set of norms for male female interaction. Maybe that could make some sense in situations like the work place where there is a power difference.
- Moo2019 7y ago
  /s "Just be a decent human being!".
- timavr 7y ago
  Can you define accidentally? Do a lot of people give their boss middle finger accidentally? Like yo, went to work, talked to CEO and give him finger, must be weather.
  - xupybd 7y ago
    No but people do get too familiar with the boss and make comments or conduct them selves in ways that are not appropriate with a boss. People do make jokes that offend CEO's or customers all the time. Social interaction is not as easy to navigate for everyone. I'm not talking about blatant abuses of power here I'm talking about subtle interactions that make people uncomfortable.
- SiempreViernes 7y ago
  "No longer"? #MeToo was about highlighting how many dysfunctional behaviours occurred with the current set of norms, so clearly the old norms didn't work great either.
  - goldcd 7y ago
    I suspect that view depends on your gender. I didn't mean that as a facetious comment. As (hopefully) a non-creepy male I was blissfully unaware of the prevalence. I didn't do it, see it, hear it - and therefore it didn't happen. Therefore nothing to worry about. Now I know it happens far more frequently that I'd thought, I worry about it. Plus, unlike a lot of other workplace issues, it's.. well currently awkward (for want of a better word) to handle. If you didn't believe to be somebody involved before, it's a little hard to work out how you should adjust your behaviour. e.g. "Would you care to join me for dinner after the meetings today, I assure you it is merely to discuss the outcome of the workshops and the day ahead. I can assure you that it is in no way an attempt for me to force you to spend some time with me in the presence of alcohol. I would like to stress I would never try to use my power to seduce you. I tried to ask HR how to ask you out, but they got worried as well. When I said "asked out" just then I didn't mean in a "date" sense, but in a..." orders room service
WeirdFlexButOky 7y ago
What the heck. As a (trans) woman who is non-tech in a tech company I find this stat concerning. Just talk to me like a I'm a fellow human, it's not that hard! PS; not too sure what 'working alone' means in terms of a common work activity?
- oblio 7y ago
  I'm guessing 1-on-1?
  - WeirdFlexButOky 7y ago
    Yeah, I guess so
- anonymous5133 7y ago
  The problem is people don't know what will offend you so they play the safe route of avoiding all contact. No discussions means no risk of lawsuit, accusations etc. I used to work at a construction company where the owner was paranoid about sexual harassment lawsuits. For this reason, he specifically hired overweight older women for all of the administrative staff because he knew this would minimize the risk of sexual harassment lawsuits. The company never had any issues with it.
  - WeirdFlexButOky 7y ago
    'specifically hired overweight older women for all of the administrative staff because he knew this would minimize the risk of sexual harassment lawsuits' I honestly cannot believe this mindset exists, that's insane. Basing hiring decisions like this is redic. It also assumes overweight older women are not attractive, and idk whether they've seen porn website stats but that's a flawed assumption.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
- WordSkill 7y ago
isostatic 7y ago
Ridiculous. Perhaps these people should go back to school and learn how to talk to others?
midasz 7y ago
> Senior-level men are now far more hesitant to spend time with junior women than junior men across a range of basic work activities.3 They are: > 12x more likely to hesitate to have 1-on-1 meetings > 9x more likely to hesitate to travel together for work > 6x more likely to hesitate to have work dinners. I think a contributing factor is that harassment can ultimately be a he-said/she-said kind of deal. You hear horror stories about men being falsely accused and getting their lives ruined (though I don't know how big that number is, but it's something to get mad about so it gets a lot of attention). Exemplified by the 12x more likely to hesitate to have 1-on-1 meetings. Any fix for this seems to be bad, adding third parties, adding surveillance, etc. All of that points to 'one of these parties is not to be trusted'.
- reboog711 7y ago
  > You hear horror stories about men being falsely accused and getting their lives ruined While I have heard these stories, they are all anecdotes that I wasn't able to verify. Can you give any real cases?
  - pgsandstrom 7y ago
    I dont think OP is necessarily suggesting the fear is justified. But fear does influence our actions, and can be really hard to reason your way out of.
    - reboog711 7y ago
      Very valid point, thank you!
  - throwaway84538 7y ago
    Throwaway for obvious reasons. I was let go due to "financial reasons" because a co-worker brought up her ass to me and my confused reply, which I didn't mean to say it loud but being exhausted it slipped part my filter and I mumbled it out loud, was cited as sexual harassment. I immediately apologized either way. She shook her ass at me despite us having no real relationship, me being married, her being 10 years younger than me and her talking about it, but I was sexually harassing her in her eyes. I can say for certain real sexual harrasment happens and I've even put a stop to it in more than one occasion in my management role or at family settings, but I've definitely been falsely accused. I brought up the conversation to my wife the night it happened and she thought it was hilarious because she knows me. Especially back then I was very socially awkward. Something I've worked at for years to get better at. I now work with multiple female coworkers very well, but they are all adults who don't behave like this to me.
danmaz74 7y ago
As it often happens, we went from one extreme to the other.
anonymous5133 7y ago
This was similar to the reaction of the Americans with Disabilities act. After the ADA was passed, the amount of disabled people employed actually decreased. Employers know that hiring an ADA employee would potentially result in an ADA lawsuit, so they avoided hiring them. It was the old well intention law with unintended consequences.
- akvadrako 7y ago
  I don't know what makes you think those laws were well intentioned. Politics pass laws because it'll make themselves look good, not to help people.
- folkhack 7y ago
  Yep - which is why the exclusion arguments are very uncomfortable truths. When you boil it down, this whole backlash to sexual assault is just risk to a corporation and it's people... and it's worthless risk when it comes to the bottom-line which is what actually matters at the end of the day (not saying this is right - I think it's horrid!) When it comes to your livelihood, businesses and people alike will do everything they can to cut-out superfluous risk with no reward. Thinking otherwise is assuming people don't operate in their best interest (they _almost always_ do). I hate to admit I think this backlash will end up hurting women in the workplace. I think it's going to exclude folks even more than before =(
Frodo478 7y ago
What a stupid article
toxicFork 7y ago
> As for why this is happening, 36% of men say they’ve avoided mentoring or socializing with a woman because they were nervous about how it would look. I am curious to hear all reasons. Additionally, what are they proposing as a solution here? For men to say "I am comfortable to mentor women"? Ok, how do you get them to be at that place? Just saying "it's not acceptable to be uncomfortable" does nothing. At my workplace you can submit to be a mentor and you get assigned people who would like to learn from your skills and experience. Sometimes these are men, sometimes these are women. You first commit to "be a mentor". Then it is your responsibility and duty to do your mentorship well no matter who is assigned to you. Sure you would get a right to vote against who your mentee is but most of the time the commitment motto is enough to face being uncomfortable.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
WordSkill 7y ago
> Not harassing women is not enough. > >Now more than ever, we need men to support women–not overlook or avoid them. They have got to be joking. If you care about your career, your family and your reputation, you simply do not leave yourself open to even the slightest possibility of being falsely accused of anything, or having someone suddenly “remember” something in ten or twenty years time if you reach the top levels of your industry. Like it or not, we are back to Victorian rules. At work, you never allow yourself to be alone with a female colleague. You do not strike up casual conversations that could be misconstrued. You do not offer them a lift home. Most importantly, you do not become their mentor, friend, emotional support, or anything beyond polite, respectful, professional interactions directly related to work. I know, I know, it sounds ridiculous, but our culture has changed. There is an insatiable appetite for scalps, accusations are considered proof, and there is no sign of sanity or reason entering the equation anytime soon. With such potential to rip your life apart, the only sane move is to firewall yourself.
- timavr 7y ago
  But a result, you treat them unfairly vs male colleagues. Also same logic can be applied to any minority who is not in power. I can’t be in room with black, trans-gender, gay, immigrants etc. So as result the only people who you built relationships are white straight dudes which get promoted.
  - luckylion 7y ago
    > Also same logic can be applied to any minority who is not in power. No, not really. There are basically zero (published) incidents where, for example, a black guy claims somebody else insulted him when they were alone. For trans women (not f2m, as far as I know), it gets dicey as well. And you're certainly right: you'll treat them differently, which may be unfair to them, but risk you career to treat them fairly? I doubt that a lot of people will choose fairness to others over their future.
    - timavr 7y ago
      Well that’s why people in power and leadership roles make big bucks. They must make sure that everyone performs to the max of their ability and at the same time limit risks. Otherwise it is work discrimination light.
spaniel 7y ago
Predictable results Men are economically more powerful than women, because that's what women want, and it's one way men get sex - yup, sex I a commodity that men want, and women have, and the pay gap squares the trade. We'll end up with frustrated career women, and sexless men otherwise.
- xiphias2 7y ago
  We already have sexless men. If you look at the stats, sex for men between 20 and 30 is declining rapidly, while for women it didn't change that much (just probably got more concentrated to fewer men)
amrx431 7y ago
Funny story: A person I know who works for Adobe, interviewed a girl for an entry position job. She was asked questions like "What is the size of RAM? etc". She got hired. They are married now. I dont know but I think this could have gone sideways for the interviewer.
MrLeftHand 7y ago
Well, this is where social media and social justice brought us. People are so afraid of each other that they actively try to barricade themselves in real life. We thought we are opening doors, but we are actually closing them, one by one. Instead of following a simple 'live and let live' rule, we are now actively hunting for the slightest mistakes and missteps. Humans can't be humans anymore, there is no room for error, or mistake. Even if the court rules in favour of the accused, the branding they can get on social platforms breaks their careers and it might drive them to suicide. Where mobs demand the employer to fire said individual is just insane. But why are we even surprised, when just telling a tasteless joke counts as an offence nowadays? Where the micro-aggression craze is consuming everybody and some forms of speech are labeled as an act of violence. People are more afraid of saying something offending to someone than having an office shooter marching through the door and gunning down people. Walking away was never more an appropriate response as it is right now. The reward is minuscule compared to the risk one can take in these situations on a personal level.
- pwinnski 7y ago
  The old status quo was horrible for women, but the current situation makes some men uncomfortable, so I guess that's worse? Or maybe changes are necessary, and the bad old days are still hanging on in the form of people failing to recognize how bad things were and still are for women.
  - MrLeftHand 7y ago
    It's not worse, it is the same but the other way around. Not every man is a sexist pig and not every woman is a saint. But clearly women have more power over men (in this so called men's world) where they can easily accuse anyone and destroy their lives in an instant. Both sexes have their good and bad side. We shouldn't let our guard down and favour one over the other. How are things bad in western societies for women? Please give me examples. Where you have female leaders all around the place. If you were referring to the Middle East, I agree women are oppressed as hell over there.
    - 7y ago
alphabettsy 7y ago
Some men truly don’t know how to conduct themselves appropriately, that’s been my lifelong experience. Maybe the response to changing culture also explains the decline in sex for young men and the number of people here saying “here, here” in response to this article rather than being constructive. This is how change works, people have to adapt. A lot of you are arguing that you should give up rather than deal with changing culture, more for the rest I guess.
- 0815test 7y ago
  Why is "the decline in sex for young men" even relevant here? Most people who argue that "some men truly don’t know how to conduct themselves appropriately" would say that 'behaving appropriately' means that professional interactions among strangers should not be unduly sexualized. So why even bring up sex at all, it seems like a red herring here.
  - Balgair 7y ago
    I think they are saying that those categories of men overlap closely. The men that do not know how to interact with women in the workforce are closely overlapped with the men who cannot 'get past 3rd base'. I'm unsure how the modern world is affecting both areas simultaneously though. Perhaps cis-hetero women are just not putting up with things that they used too put up with.
    - luckylion 7y ago
      > The men that do not know how to interact with women in the workforce are closely overlapped with the men who cannot 'get past 3rd base'. Given that the major examples are Harvey Weinstein & Co, I believe that would be comically wrong.
      - Balgair 7y ago
        I mean, I didn't say the overlap was 100%. That monster would be obviously outside this.
triplee 7y ago
Then these 60% of dudes are clearly unqualified for management. Please either figure your business out or make room for someone who is capable of management. And I say this because if a manager is that afraid of accusations, they are either doing something to earn said accusations, are promoting a work environment where false accusations are easily believed, or simply just a crappy manager and probably not good at dealing with many of their male reports either. I note the last one because the two main archetypes that feel this way tend to be older management types that were taught by Mad Men era managers (read overgrown frat boys) or are Mike Pence style ultra-niche religious. Now, again, neither of those are flaws in and of themselves, but if you can't come above those backgrounds and manage a diverse team, then you don't deserve a team.
- sdinsn 7y ago
  > And I say this because if a manager is that afraid of accusations, they are either doing something to earn said accusations, are promoting a work environment where false accusations are easily believed, or simply just a crappy manager and probably not good at dealing with many of their male reports either. And there is the victim blaming.
AdamHede 7y ago
people calling it a sensible strategy or solid 'risk assessment' really surprises me. You are to a large degree in charge of your risk. Proper, fullblown, 100% fabcricated accussations seems exceedingly rare. I've never seen any stats and the anecdotes I hear are often 3rd or 4rd degree. Be a decent human being and you are probably still more likely to get struck by lightning or die in a car crash. Meanwhile, the cost of walling yourself off from 50% of your colleagues (or as a manager, to avoid 50% of the workforce) seems like a very high cost to your career.
- cannonedhamster 7y ago
  No one expects to be in a situation until they're in it. It's a Faustian bargain to be sure. There's no good outcome to come of either men sexually harassing women in any situation, and cutting out female coworkers isn't the solution either but plainly this was an expected result. If people are rational their first reaction is to be selfish and protect themselves and their family. In a few years there will be a new normal and things will start changing, but social change always does.
dang 7y ago
The study was discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19945514 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19945514.
dondawest 7y ago
Joe Lonsdale already tried that. Didn’t work out too great for poor Joe!
guilhas 7y ago
I have been in 3 different companies in the UK as a developer, and I feel the opposite, men are more keen to help female developers, and are nicer and more patient. Sometimes it even feels kinda pervert.
rdl 7y ago
I'd like to think I would be equally willing to assist people independent of gender, but there are absolutely some formats of activity where I'd be very reluctant to participate with a female, particularly a younger/whatever female. "Meet up for drinks after the conference one on one" is one of those -- I'd do it with a guy, or with someone I knew well, but wouldn't with a random woman in a lot of cases, both because I wouldn't want her to feel potentially uncomfortable, and because I wouldn't want the potential liability. Also I'd be willing to let a guy friend/colleague/etc. use my hotel room to store stuff/use the bathroom/whatever during a conference, but unless it's a peer-level colleague that I know well, would not do this with a woman. I'd try to compensate by changing the format (adding a third or more person, or meeting at a different time or location), but I wouldn't be surprised if there's a marginal case where it would disadvantage the woman. However, there's no stranger or non-close-friend for whom I'd be willing to accept the liability here.
thrower123 7y ago
It's quite a lot easier to just work in an all-male department. You don't have to tiptoe around, you can say what you think, criticism can be offered honestly. Considerably fewer grudges are held. Stuff just gets done. My wife works as a PM for another software company with a much different gender ratio, and every day she comes home with stories about backbiting and jockeying for position and incredibly petty feuding that makes the sum of what I've seen in the entire eight years at my employer pale in comparison. Every single day it's more drama, and they drown in communication, with so much sound and fury, signifying nothing.

59 points by r_singh 7y ago

Most important thing in modern America is to protect yourself and your reputation from assault as a simple accusation can destroy your life and plenty of people lie. Some rhetoric is not going to change that fact.

pas 7y ago
No need to lie, it's enough if someone misunderstood the other and it got ugly (HR etc involved).

timavr 7y ago

Only in America. Women is very dangerous, be aware. On serious note, somebody should do a startup which trains men to work with women. Apparently opportunity is huge. Should be the first slide. 60% of all men...

romanovcode 7y ago
> which trains men to work with women. Immediately will be labeled as sexist and forced to close business. You can't win this battle, best way is to not play.
- timavr 7y ago
  We can just go with euphemism, like “work comfort” and obviously we do it for all genders.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- inflatableDodo 7y ago
  Are you kidding? There's loads of this kind of thing out there already. Just call it something sickening like 'Workplace Wellness' and you are good. Though I think they should borrow one of the existing programs from the US military if they want to get the message through to certain people I have encountered in management. Having a drill seargent bellow at them about it not being ok to molest their secretary might actually work wonders.
  - timavr 7y ago
    We are getting close.
    - inflatableDodo 7y ago
      You bait and switch it as a military backed outdoor team-building exercise and wait till everyone is half way up a mountain and can't easily get away before getting a six and a half foot transexual marine to terrify them into understanding the concept of intersectionality.
      - timavr 7y ago
        Lol. I like it.
        inflatableDodo 7y ago
        Do you think I have much of a future in HR consultancy?
        timavr 7y ago
        Yes. On serious note, it is huge opportunity even as non VC scale biz. It is infinite in nature. I think the problem lies in gender education in schools and colleges, where people get lost in transition to adult life. Like hitting on everyone/anyone in college is fair game because there is no power differential, but as soon as people enter workforce, they need to be retrained.
        inflatableDodo 7y ago
        I think the problem could be solved by a rule of no hitting on anyone in the workplace and much shorter working hours. People get horny. If you lock them up in the workplace for their entire waking life you are going to have some fairly predictable issues.
WeirdFlexButOky 7y ago
No training needed, just treat us like fellow human beings. It's not a high bar.
CompanionCuuube 7y ago
What about a supervisor body cam startup? There are a small number of bad individuals which the system would allow you to identify while protecting the innocent ones from false accusations.

fuckamerica 7y ago

too much me2

xupybd 7y ago

It’s a simple risk reward call. There is far more risk of accidentally crossing the line with the opposite sex. Yes MeToo has shed light on a lot and no doubt been a net positive but there will be a time until the dust settles and people learn how to work together safely. We no longer have a good formal set of norms for male female interaction. Maybe that could make some sense in situations like the work place where there is a power difference.

Moo2019 7y ago
/s "Just be a decent human being!".
timavr 7y ago
Can you define accidentally? Do a lot of people give their boss middle finger accidentally? Like yo, went to work, talked to CEO and give him finger, must be weather.
- xupybd 7y ago
  No but people do get too familiar with the boss and make comments or conduct them selves in ways that are not appropriate with a boss. People do make jokes that offend CEO's or customers all the time. Social interaction is not as easy to navigate for everyone. I'm not talking about blatant abuses of power here I'm talking about subtle interactions that make people uncomfortable.
SiempreViernes 7y ago
"No longer"? #MeToo was about highlighting how many dysfunctional behaviours occurred with the current set of norms, so clearly the old norms didn't work great either.
- goldcd 7y ago
  I suspect that view depends on your gender. I didn't mean that as a facetious comment. As (hopefully) a non-creepy male I was blissfully unaware of the prevalence. I didn't do it, see it, hear it - and therefore it didn't happen. Therefore nothing to worry about. Now I know it happens far more frequently that I'd thought, I worry about it. Plus, unlike a lot of other workplace issues, it's.. well currently awkward (for want of a better word) to handle. If you didn't believe to be somebody involved before, it's a little hard to work out how you should adjust your behaviour. e.g. "Would you care to join me for dinner after the meetings today, I assure you it is merely to discuss the outcome of the workshops and the day ahead. I can assure you that it is in no way an attempt for me to force you to spend some time with me in the presence of alcohol. I would like to stress I would never try to use my power to seduce you. I tried to ask HR how to ask you out, but they got worried as well. When I said "asked out" just then I didn't mean in a "date" sense, but in a..." orders room service

WeirdFlexButOky 7y ago

What the heck. As a (trans) woman who is non-tech in a tech company I find this stat concerning. Just talk to me like a I'm a fellow human, it's not that hard! PS; not too sure what 'working alone' means in terms of a common work activity?

oblio 7y ago
I'm guessing 1-on-1?
- WeirdFlexButOky 7y ago
  Yeah, I guess so
anonymous5133 7y ago
The problem is people don't know what will offend you so they play the safe route of avoiding all contact. No discussions means no risk of lawsuit, accusations etc. I used to work at a construction company where the owner was paranoid about sexual harassment lawsuits. For this reason, he specifically hired overweight older women for all of the administrative staff because he knew this would minimize the risk of sexual harassment lawsuits. The company never had any issues with it.
- WeirdFlexButOky 7y ago
  'specifically hired overweight older women for all of the administrative staff because he knew this would minimize the risk of sexual harassment lawsuits' I honestly cannot believe this mindset exists, that's insane. Basing hiring decisions like this is redic. It also assumes overweight older women are not attractive, and idk whether they've seen porn website stats but that's a flawed assumption.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
WordSkill 7y ago

isostatic 7y ago

Ridiculous. Perhaps these people should go back to school and learn how to talk to others?

midasz 7y ago

> Senior-level men are now far more hesitant to spend time with junior women than junior men across a range of basic work activities.3 They are: > 12x more likely to hesitate to have 1-on-1 meetings > 9x more likely to hesitate to travel together for work > 6x more likely to hesitate to have work dinners. I think a contributing factor is that harassment can ultimately be a he-said/she-said kind of deal. You hear horror stories about men being falsely accused and getting their lives ruined (though I don't know how big that number is, but it's something to get mad about so it gets a lot of attention). Exemplified by the 12x more likely to hesitate to have 1-on-1 meetings. Any fix for this seems to be bad, adding third parties, adding surveillance, etc. All of that points to 'one of these parties is not to be trusted'.

reboog711 7y ago
> You hear horror stories about men being falsely accused and getting their lives ruined While I have heard these stories, they are all anecdotes that I wasn't able to verify. Can you give any real cases?
- pgsandstrom 7y ago
  I dont think OP is necessarily suggesting the fear is justified. But fear does influence our actions, and can be really hard to reason your way out of.
  - reboog711 7y ago
    Very valid point, thank you!
- throwaway84538 7y ago
  Throwaway for obvious reasons. I was let go due to "financial reasons" because a co-worker brought up her ass to me and my confused reply, which I didn't mean to say it loud but being exhausted it slipped part my filter and I mumbled it out loud, was cited as sexual harassment. I immediately apologized either way. She shook her ass at me despite us having no real relationship, me being married, her being 10 years younger than me and her talking about it, but I was sexually harassing her in her eyes. I can say for certain real sexual harrasment happens and I've even put a stop to it in more than one occasion in my management role or at family settings, but I've definitely been falsely accused. I brought up the conversation to my wife the night it happened and she thought it was hilarious because she knows me. Especially back then I was very socially awkward. Something I've worked at for years to get better at. I now work with multiple female coworkers very well, but they are all adults who don't behave like this to me.

danmaz74 7y ago

As it often happens, we went from one extreme to the other.

anonymous5133 7y ago

This was similar to the reaction of the Americans with Disabilities act. After the ADA was passed, the amount of disabled people employed actually decreased. Employers know that hiring an ADA employee would potentially result in an ADA lawsuit, so they avoided hiring them. It was the old well intention law with unintended consequences.

akvadrako 7y ago
I don't know what makes you think those laws were well intentioned. Politics pass laws because it'll make themselves look good, not to help people.
folkhack 7y ago
Yep - which is why the exclusion arguments are very uncomfortable truths. When you boil it down, this whole backlash to sexual assault is just risk to a corporation and it's people... and it's worthless risk when it comes to the bottom-line which is what actually matters at the end of the day (not saying this is right - I think it's horrid!) When it comes to your livelihood, businesses and people alike will do everything they can to cut-out superfluous risk with no reward. Thinking otherwise is assuming people don't operate in their best interest (they _almost always_ do). I hate to admit I think this backlash will end up hurting women in the workplace. I think it's going to exclude folks even more than before =(

Frodo478 7y ago

What a stupid article

toxicFork 7y ago

> As for why this is happening, 36% of men say they’ve avoided mentoring or socializing with a woman because they were nervous about how it would look. I am curious to hear all reasons. Additionally, what are they proposing as a solution here? For men to say "I am comfortable to mentor women"? Ok, how do you get them to be at that place? Just saying "it's not acceptable to be uncomfortable" does nothing. At my workplace you can submit to be a mentor and you get assigned people who would like to learn from your skills and experience. Sometimes these are men, sometimes these are women. You first commit to "be a mentor". Then it is your responsibility and duty to do your mentorship well no matter who is assigned to you. Sure you would get a right to vote against who your mentee is but most of the time the commitment motto is enough to face being uncomfortable.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

WordSkill 7y ago

> Not harassing women is not enough. > >Now more than ever, we need men to support women–not overlook or avoid them. They have got to be joking. If you care about your career, your family and your reputation, you simply do not leave yourself open to even the slightest possibility of being falsely accused of anything, or having someone suddenly “remember” something in ten or twenty years time if you reach the top levels of your industry. Like it or not, we are back to Victorian rules. At work, you never allow yourself to be alone with a female colleague. You do not strike up casual conversations that could be misconstrued. You do not offer them a lift home. Most importantly, you do not become their mentor, friend, emotional support, or anything beyond polite, respectful, professional interactions directly related to work. I know, I know, it sounds ridiculous, but our culture has changed. There is an insatiable appetite for scalps, accusations are considered proof, and there is no sign of sanity or reason entering the equation anytime soon. With such potential to rip your life apart, the only sane move is to firewall yourself.

timavr 7y ago
But a result, you treat them unfairly vs male colleagues. Also same logic can be applied to any minority who is not in power. I can’t be in room with black, trans-gender, gay, immigrants etc. So as result the only people who you built relationships are white straight dudes which get promoted.
- luckylion 7y ago
  > Also same logic can be applied to any minority who is not in power. No, not really. There are basically zero (published) incidents where, for example, a black guy claims somebody else insulted him when they were alone. For trans women (not f2m, as far as I know), it gets dicey as well. And you're certainly right: you'll treat them differently, which may be unfair to them, but risk you career to treat them fairly? I doubt that a lot of people will choose fairness to others over their future.
  - timavr 7y ago
    Well that’s why people in power and leadership roles make big bucks. They must make sure that everyone performs to the max of their ability and at the same time limit risks. Otherwise it is work discrimination light.

spaniel 7y ago

Predictable results Men are economically more powerful than women, because that's what women want, and it's one way men get sex - yup, sex I a commodity that men want, and women have, and the pay gap squares the trade. We'll end up with frustrated career women, and sexless men otherwise.

xiphias2 7y ago
We already have sexless men. If you look at the stats, sex for men between 20 and 30 is declining rapidly, while for women it didn't change that much (just probably got more concentrated to fewer men)

amrx431 7y ago

Funny story: A person I know who works for Adobe, interviewed a girl for an entry position job. She was asked questions like "What is the size of RAM? etc". She got hired. They are married now. I dont know but I think this could have gone sideways for the interviewer.

MrLeftHand 7y ago

Well, this is where social media and social justice brought us. People are so afraid of each other that they actively try to barricade themselves in real life. We thought we are opening doors, but we are actually closing them, one by one. Instead of following a simple 'live and let live' rule, we are now actively hunting for the slightest mistakes and missteps. Humans can't be humans anymore, there is no room for error, or mistake. Even if the court rules in favour of the accused, the branding they can get on social platforms breaks their careers and it might drive them to suicide. Where mobs demand the employer to fire said individual is just insane. But why are we even surprised, when just telling a tasteless joke counts as an offence nowadays? Where the micro-aggression craze is consuming everybody and some forms of speech are labeled as an act of violence. People are more afraid of saying something offending to someone than having an office shooter marching through the door and gunning down people. Walking away was never more an appropriate response as it is right now. The reward is minuscule compared to the risk one can take in these situations on a personal level.

pwinnski 7y ago
The old status quo was horrible for women, but the current situation makes some men uncomfortable, so I guess that's worse? Or maybe changes are necessary, and the bad old days are still hanging on in the form of people failing to recognize how bad things were and still are for women.
- MrLeftHand 7y ago
  It's not worse, it is the same but the other way around. Not every man is a sexist pig and not every woman is a saint. But clearly women have more power over men (in this so called men's world) where they can easily accuse anyone and destroy their lives in an instant. Both sexes have their good and bad side. We shouldn't let our guard down and favour one over the other. How are things bad in western societies for women? Please give me examples. Where you have female leaders all around the place. If you were referring to the Middle East, I agree women are oppressed as hell over there.
  - 7y ago

alphabettsy 7y ago

Some men truly don’t know how to conduct themselves appropriately, that’s been my lifelong experience. Maybe the response to changing culture also explains the decline in sex for young men and the number of people here saying “here, here” in response to this article rather than being constructive. This is how change works, people have to adapt. A lot of you are arguing that you should give up rather than deal with changing culture, more for the rest I guess.

0815test 7y ago
Why is "the decline in sex for young men" even relevant here? Most people who argue that "some men truly don’t know how to conduct themselves appropriately" would say that 'behaving appropriately' means that professional interactions among strangers should not be unduly sexualized. So why even bring up sex at all, it seems like a red herring here.
- Balgair 7y ago
  I think they are saying that those categories of men overlap closely. The men that do not know how to interact with women in the workforce are closely overlapped with the men who cannot 'get past 3rd base'. I'm unsure how the modern world is affecting both areas simultaneously though. Perhaps cis-hetero women are just not putting up with things that they used too put up with.
  - luckylion 7y ago
    > The men that do not know how to interact with women in the workforce are closely overlapped with the men who cannot 'get past 3rd base'. Given that the major examples are Harvey Weinstein & Co, I believe that would be comically wrong.
    - Balgair 7y ago
      I mean, I didn't say the overlap was 100%. That monster would be obviously outside this.

triplee 7y ago

Then these 60% of dudes are clearly unqualified for management. Please either figure your business out or make room for someone who is capable of management. And I say this because if a manager is that afraid of accusations, they are either doing something to earn said accusations, are promoting a work environment where false accusations are easily believed, or simply just a crappy manager and probably not good at dealing with many of their male reports either. I note the last one because the two main archetypes that feel this way tend to be older management types that were taught by Mad Men era managers (read overgrown frat boys) or are Mike Pence style ultra-niche religious. Now, again, neither of those are flaws in and of themselves, but if you can't come above those backgrounds and manage a diverse team, then you don't deserve a team.

sdinsn 7y ago
> And I say this because if a manager is that afraid of accusations, they are either doing something to earn said accusations, are promoting a work environment where false accusations are easily believed, or simply just a crappy manager and probably not good at dealing with many of their male reports either. And there is the victim blaming.

AdamHede 7y ago

people calling it a sensible strategy or solid 'risk assessment' really surprises me. You are to a large degree in charge of your risk. Proper, fullblown, 100% fabcricated accussations seems exceedingly rare. I've never seen any stats and the anecdotes I hear are often 3rd or 4rd degree. Be a decent human being and you are probably still more likely to get struck by lightning or die in a car crash. Meanwhile, the cost of walling yourself off from 50% of your colleagues (or as a manager, to avoid 50% of the workforce) seems like a very high cost to your career.

cannonedhamster 7y ago
No one expects to be in a situation until they're in it. It's a Faustian bargain to be sure. There's no good outcome to come of either men sexually harassing women in any situation, and cutting out female coworkers isn't the solution either but plainly this was an expected result. If people are rational their first reaction is to be selfish and protect themselves and their family. In a few years there will be a new normal and things will start changing, but social change always does.

dang 7y ago

The study was discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19945514 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19945514.

dondawest 7y ago

Joe Lonsdale already tried that. Didn’t work out too great for poor Joe!

guilhas 7y ago

I have been in 3 different companies in the UK as a developer, and I feel the opposite, men are more keen to help female developers, and are nicer and more patient. Sometimes it even feels kinda pervert.

rdl 7y ago

I'd like to think I would be equally willing to assist people independent of gender, but there are absolutely some formats of activity where I'd be very reluctant to participate with a female, particularly a younger/whatever female. "Meet up for drinks after the conference one on one" is one of those -- I'd do it with a guy, or with someone I knew well, but wouldn't with a random woman in a lot of cases, both because I wouldn't want her to feel potentially uncomfortable, and because I wouldn't want the potential liability. Also I'd be willing to let a guy friend/colleague/etc. use my hotel room to store stuff/use the bathroom/whatever during a conference, but unless it's a peer-level colleague that I know well, would not do this with a woman. I'd try to compensate by changing the format (adding a third or more person, or meeting at a different time or location), but I wouldn't be surprised if there's a marginal case where it would disadvantage the woman. However, there's no stranger or non-close-friend for whom I'd be willing to accept the liability here.

thrower123 7y ago

It's quite a lot easier to just work in an all-male department. You don't have to tiptoe around, you can say what you think, criticism can be offered honestly. Considerably fewer grudges are held. Stuff just gets done. My wife works as a PM for another software company with a much different gender ratio, and every day she comes home with stories about backbiting and jockeying for position and incredibly petty feuding that makes the sum of what I've seen in the entire eight years at my employer pale in comparison. Every single day it's more drama, and they drown in communication, with so much sound and fury, signifying nothing.