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The plural of anecdote is not data. And taking the furthest logical conclusion ("Government regulation ends in violence!") is utterly ridiculous and unnecessary

The plural of anecdote is not data. And taking the furthest logical conclusion ("Government regulation ends in violence!") is utterly ridiculous and unnecessary in this context. To be clear, the United States' public education system is BAD. It is sometimes VERY BAD. But it's not consistently bad; there are public schools that are quite good. There are other countries with heavily regulated public education systems that are so much better than the United States - read up on Finland's remarkable public education system if you don't believe me. (And don't get tripped up on inconsistent usage of "public" and "private" to mean opposites in different countries!) So logically, the problem isn't that government regulation of education is inherently bad; Rather, the problem is that we (in the United States) are doing a bad job of it. Splitting public education funding between public schools and charter schools and forcing public schools to compete with test scores and other proxy metrics is demonstrably making things worse, not better.

ultrarunner 7y ago
"We" are not doing a very good job of it. I agree with you there. Both my parents (and their parents) are or were educators in public schools, from teachers to instructors to principals and coaches. By all accounts it is getting worse, not better. Anecdotes are not data, but it would be foolish to throw them away blindly. Anecdotes become data when they can be used to answer questions that can inform future decision making processes. For example, we could ask, "is more politics and political process positively impacting education?" If the answer is that no, one hundred years of American politics hasn't improved the situation [0] despite it costing far more than it used to per-student [1], then we should probably conclude that said process is a dead end and look elsewhere. I never claimed that the anecdote I provided was data; I would rather like to know the answers to the questions I asked. Handwaving them away seems closer to arguing in bad faith than what you accused me of doing elsewhere. Further, I would suggest that the increased presence of School Resource Officers in schools, the increased usage of courts for school-related punishment, and the continued emotional and physical violence experienced by students from their peers show that, indeed, forced participation in government schools does indeed involve violence. That your experts have been unable to solve this problem (and that you hand wave it away) does not generate confidence in your position. [0] https://www.nationsreportcard.gov/ltt_2012/summary.aspx https://www.nationsreportcard.gov/ltt_2012/summary.aspx [1] https://www.cato.org/blog/public-school-spending-theres-chart https://www.cato.org/blog/public-school-spending-theres-char...
- swivelmaster 7y ago
  "Further, I would suggest that the increased presence of School Resource Officers in schools, the increased usage of courts for school-related punishment, and the continued emotional and physical violence experienced by students from their peers show that, indeed, forced participation in government schools does indeed involve violence." This is a pretty bad correlation/causation argument. You're making arguments that only make sense if: 1: The United States is the only country in the entire world with a government-run education system and there are no other examples to look to 2: Every decision made that has negatively impacted our education is the only possible decision that could have been made under the circumstances Neither of these are true. Just because our government has made some really bad decisions doesn't mean that this is the only possible outcome of government-run education. If you look at education rankings globally, the United States is pretty far down the list, and most if not all of the countries above us use government-run education systems. The number one in the world, Finland, prohibits private schools all together. It simply does. not. logically. follow. that the overreach of our criminal justice system is the inevitable result of a government-run education system. You're ignoring so many political realities that are unique to this country. There is nothing hand-waving about saying that your anecdotes are not data. I went to a school that had exactly zero teacher/child sex scandals, can I use that to "prove" that the system is working? No, I can't. Our public education system delegates a LOT of responsibility down the line. The federal government offers some funding that is contingent on certain requirements being met, but the states are responsible for the execution. The states have elected officials and appointed boards of education, but they delegate a lot of decision-making to individual districts, which also have elected and appointed officials. Finally, just because I am defending the idea of government-run education doesn't mean I am defending the implementation of it that we have. Please do not confuse those two distinct positions.

ultrarunner 7y ago

"We" are not doing a very good job of it. I agree with you there. Both my parents (and their parents) are or were educators in public schools, from teachers to instructors to principals and coaches. By all accounts it is getting worse, not better. Anecdotes are not data, but it would be foolish to throw them away blindly. Anecdotes become data when they can be used to answer questions that can inform future decision making processes. For example, we could ask, "is more politics and political process positively impacting education?" If the answer is that no, one hundred years of American politics hasn't improved the situation [0] despite it costing far more than it used to per-student [1], then we should probably conclude that said process is a dead end and look elsewhere. I never claimed that the anecdote I provided was data; I would rather like to know the answers to the questions I asked. Handwaving them away seems closer to arguing in bad faith than what you accused me of doing elsewhere. Further, I would suggest that the increased presence of School Resource Officers in schools, the increased usage of courts for school-related punishment, and the continued emotional and physical violence experienced by students from their peers show that, indeed, forced participation in government schools does indeed involve violence. That your experts have been unable to solve this problem (and that you hand wave it away) does not generate confidence in your position. [0] https://www.nationsreportcard.gov/ltt_2012/summary.aspx https://www.nationsreportcard.gov/ltt_2012/summary.aspx [1] https://www.cato.org/blog/public-school-spending-theres-chart https://www.cato.org/blog/public-school-spending-theres-char...

swivelmaster 7y ago
"Further, I would suggest that the increased presence of School Resource Officers in schools, the increased usage of courts for school-related punishment, and the continued emotional and physical violence experienced by students from their peers show that, indeed, forced participation in government schools does indeed involve violence." This is a pretty bad correlation/causation argument. You're making arguments that only make sense if: 1: The United States is the only country in the entire world with a government-run education system and there are no other examples to look to 2: Every decision made that has negatively impacted our education is the only possible decision that could have been made under the circumstances Neither of these are true. Just because our government has made some really bad decisions doesn't mean that this is the only possible outcome of government-run education. If you look at education rankings globally, the United States is pretty far down the list, and most if not all of the countries above us use government-run education systems. The number one in the world, Finland, prohibits private schools all together. It simply does. not. logically. follow. that the overreach of our criminal justice system is the inevitable result of a government-run education system. You're ignoring so many political realities that are unique to this country. There is nothing hand-waving about saying that your anecdotes are not data. I went to a school that had exactly zero teacher/child sex scandals, can I use that to "prove" that the system is working? No, I can't. Our public education system delegates a LOT of responsibility down the line. The federal government offers some funding that is contingent on certain requirements being met, but the states are responsible for the execution. The states have elected officials and appointed boards of education, but they delegate a lot of decision-making to individual districts, which also have elected and appointed officials. Finally, just because I am defending the idea of government-run education doesn't mean I am defending the implementation of it that we have. Please do not confuse those two distinct positions.