6 ms·

I'm surprised that half of people would believe businesses are making a positive impact on the world.

by izzydata 7y ago

atemerev 7y ago
Unless you live in North Korea (and perhaps even there), everything that your life depends on is brought by businesses.
- TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
  Perhaps that's not the most convincing way to contradict the original point.
- BonesJustice 7y ago
  Also, ‘businesses’ is not the same as, say, ‘megacorps’. Though I get where the grandparent comment was coming from.
- AngryData 7y ago
  But benefiting me personally doesn't mean I would agree that it benefits or is a positive influence on the world. Coal power benefits me, but it is still negative on a larger scale.
  - atemerev 7y ago
    If it is negative on a larger scale, it brings you negative consequences as well as benefits, and these consequences will influence demand. There is nothing magical about externalities; they are part of the market. Long-term consequences are routinely measured, priced and evaluated by markets.
- larkeith 7y ago
  This fails to address parent's view, and is untrue for plenty of people besides. It is not uncommon for humans to use something that turns out suboptimal in the long term.
- Draiken 7y ago
  I see this canned response all the time. But it's a gross oversimplification of the issue designed to keep the ignorant happy. The cheap things from china, all your amazon crap, your iPhones and all the rest of the so called "nice things" of today's society are only gained through (near) slavery conditions elsewhere. This delayed effect on how bad things are that is now reaching rich countries like the US, but it has been around on every other "developing" nation in the world for a long time. I don't think we're talking about the local grocer. We're talking about multi-billion corps that can do anything. Banks that are literally "too big to fail". Industries that control entire sections of governments. This is the endgame of capitalism and nobody ever wants to face. It's an unsustainable system that will likely end in a dystopian-like world with mega corporations controlling everything and everyone (even your salary through UBI). The theory that corporations get too big then break down resetting the cycle no longer applies because the technology evolved. I mean, the sole purpose of a business is to generate profit. It's not to improve human kind, to cure diseases, end the world hunger or make everyone's lives better. It was always, and always will be, in the name of profit. When we realize that profit is literally ripping people off from their work, maybe some might change their views.
  - atemerev 7y ago
    Yes, this is Marxism. Marxism was tried quite a few times already, particularly in the USSR. I was born in the USSR and lived there until it collapsed, so I am pretty familiar with what Marxist socialism used to look like. Thank you, I prefer capitalism, which brings prosperity, innovation and peace to the world.
    - Draiken 7y ago
      It's so easy to label things erroneously. No, this is not Marxism. I can't even claim to have ever read his books. It's the reality of what I see today. Note that I'm not saying in any way how we should solve these things. I'm neither smart enough to think of those solutions or naive to think they'll ever come to life. But it's undeniable that we live in a dire world and capitalism is one of the biggest forces behind it all. Peace? Seriously? Of all the things you could cite from capitalism, you mention the one thing that never stopped happening. Perhaps war stopped nearby your home, but capitalism never brought peace to the world. On the contrary, it created many, many wars. As it's often said: war is profitable. Innovation is a tricky one. I agree a lot has been brought because of the pursuit for profit, but I believe they are happy coincidences. Many of the worlds greatest brains are today trying to find out how to exploit people through ads. Perhaps your personal experience makes capitalism the lesser evil compared to the soviet USSR, but I'd urge you to not fall into this false dicothomy. It's not a binary choice.
- asdff 7y ago
  And my life is dependent on exponential consumption and destruction, and I have no agency to stop that. Pretty glad I can order pizza with my watch though! Cavemen would be green with envy at that.
  - atemerev 7y ago
    You could buy a cheaper watch, and go get a pizza from a local pizzeria. Everybody has the agency to control their consumption and ethic policies.
    - izzydata 7y ago
      I don't know that the artificial monetary value of a watch has any bearing on the impact to the environment it cost to produce it. Or the pizza for that matter.
- CalRobert 7y ago
  This mindset is why our planet is boiling. Pretty sure plankton aren't worrying about quarterly growth.
CM30 7y ago
If you look at society now compared to society a few hundred years ago, or perhaps society in an authoritarian/communist country, then it's pretty clear that the effects of a capitalist society (at least in a democractic system) have been on the positive side. After all, we've got better products and services available now than ever before, better tech than ever before and a decent number of ways to go from dirt poor to millionaire as well. Is it perfect? Hell no. Is it good for everyone? Unfortunately not. But pretty much everything you depend on comes from a business of some type or another.
- asdff 7y ago
  If the bar is that I'm no longer a peasant, that's a pretty low fucking bar.

I'm surprised that half of people would believe businesses are making a positive impact on the world.

atemerev 7y ago

Unless you live in North Korea (and perhaps even there), everything that your life depends on is brought by businesses.

TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
Perhaps that's not the most convincing way to contradict the original point.
BonesJustice 7y ago
Also, ‘businesses’ is not the same as, say, ‘megacorps’. Though I get where the grandparent comment was coming from.
AngryData 7y ago
But benefiting me personally doesn't mean I would agree that it benefits or is a positive influence on the world. Coal power benefits me, but it is still negative on a larger scale.
- atemerev 7y ago
  If it is negative on a larger scale, it brings you negative consequences as well as benefits, and these consequences will influence demand. There is nothing magical about externalities; they are part of the market. Long-term consequences are routinely measured, priced and evaluated by markets.
larkeith 7y ago
This fails to address parent's view, and is untrue for plenty of people besides. It is not uncommon for humans to use something that turns out suboptimal in the long term.
Draiken 7y ago
I see this canned response all the time. But it's a gross oversimplification of the issue designed to keep the ignorant happy. The cheap things from china, all your amazon crap, your iPhones and all the rest of the so called "nice things" of today's society are only gained through (near) slavery conditions elsewhere. This delayed effect on how bad things are that is now reaching rich countries like the US, but it has been around on every other "developing" nation in the world for a long time. I don't think we're talking about the local grocer. We're talking about multi-billion corps that can do anything. Banks that are literally "too big to fail". Industries that control entire sections of governments. This is the endgame of capitalism and nobody ever wants to face. It's an unsustainable system that will likely end in a dystopian-like world with mega corporations controlling everything and everyone (even your salary through UBI). The theory that corporations get too big then break down resetting the cycle no longer applies because the technology evolved. I mean, the sole purpose of a business is to generate profit. It's not to improve human kind, to cure diseases, end the world hunger or make everyone's lives better. It was always, and always will be, in the name of profit. When we realize that profit is literally ripping people off from their work, maybe some might change their views.
- atemerev 7y ago
  Yes, this is Marxism. Marxism was tried quite a few times already, particularly in the USSR. I was born in the USSR and lived there until it collapsed, so I am pretty familiar with what Marxist socialism used to look like. Thank you, I prefer capitalism, which brings prosperity, innovation and peace to the world.
  - Draiken 7y ago
    It's so easy to label things erroneously. No, this is not Marxism. I can't even claim to have ever read his books. It's the reality of what I see today. Note that I'm not saying in any way how we should solve these things. I'm neither smart enough to think of those solutions or naive to think they'll ever come to life. But it's undeniable that we live in a dire world and capitalism is one of the biggest forces behind it all. Peace? Seriously? Of all the things you could cite from capitalism, you mention the one thing that never stopped happening. Perhaps war stopped nearby your home, but capitalism never brought peace to the world. On the contrary, it created many, many wars. As it's often said: war is profitable. Innovation is a tricky one. I agree a lot has been brought because of the pursuit for profit, but I believe they are happy coincidences. Many of the worlds greatest brains are today trying to find out how to exploit people through ads. Perhaps your personal experience makes capitalism the lesser evil compared to the soviet USSR, but I'd urge you to not fall into this false dicothomy. It's not a binary choice.
asdff 7y ago
And my life is dependent on exponential consumption and destruction, and I have no agency to stop that. Pretty glad I can order pizza with my watch though! Cavemen would be green with envy at that.
- atemerev 7y ago
  You could buy a cheaper watch, and go get a pizza from a local pizzeria. Everybody has the agency to control their consumption and ethic policies.
  - izzydata 7y ago
    I don't know that the artificial monetary value of a watch has any bearing on the impact to the environment it cost to produce it. Or the pizza for that matter.
CalRobert 7y ago
This mindset is why our planet is boiling. Pretty sure plankton aren't worrying about quarterly growth.

CM30 7y ago

If you look at society now compared to society a few hundred years ago, or perhaps society in an authoritarian/communist country, then it's pretty clear that the effects of a capitalist society (at least in a democractic system) have been on the positive side. After all, we've got better products and services available now than ever before, better tech than ever before and a decent number of ways to go from dirt poor to millionaire as well. Is it perfect? Hell no. Is it good for everyone? Unfortunately not. But pretty much everything you depend on comes from a business of some type or another.

asdff 7y ago
If the bar is that I'm no longer a peasant, that's a pretty low fucking bar.