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Ugh. This is predictable in the age of guilty til proven innocent isn't it? When an accusation is enough to tank a career then yes people are going to feel the

by erentz 7y ago

Ugh. This is predictable in the age of guilty til proven innocent isn't it? When an accusation is enough to tank a career then yes people are going to feel the need to protect themselves by removing any possibility of that happening. And rather than trying to approach the problem constructively, the article takes a strong tone throughout that puts the blame on men: > That means the many, many women in this world who are just trying to do their jobs and make progress in their careers are being stymied by men who are terrified of being, I dunno, unable to control themselves while talking to a woman in the conference room. No. It's not men who are afraid they're unable to control themselves. It's men who are afraid they'll be falsely accused and won't be able to defend themselves.

vkou 7y ago
An unsubstantiated accusation is not enough to tank a career. A cross-correlated one, from multiple independent reports is another story. As is one that stands up to cross-examination and scrutiny. Reporting harassment by your manager is just as likely, if not moreso to shit on your career, as it is on theirs. They have all the power in this relationship, and every opportunity to retaliate if you aren't believed.
- LowLevelHacker 7y ago
  I've seen it, a life ruined because of it
- erentz 7y ago
  What's your explanation for the change reported in the article? TFA says "60% of male managers say they are uncomfortable performing common workplace activities such as mentoring, working one on one, or socializing with a woman." TFA's only suggestion for a cause is because these men are "unable to control themselves while talking to a woman in the conference room." Do you believe the problem is really that 60% of men are unable to control themselves? There's a problem here, a real problem, but perpetuating ideas such as this really isn't a good way to start solving that problem.
- hansflying 7y ago
  Man’s life ‘destroyed’ following classmate’s false rape allegation: https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/mans-life-destroyed-following-classmates-false-rape-allegation/news-story/05ba6eeffae4791c3b99993634afa226 https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/mans-life-destro...
  - vkou 7y ago
    And every year, the stars align, and some single-digit number of people get eaten by sharks. That doesn't mean that 'getting eaten by sharks' is something you should be particularly worried about.
- htkibar 7y ago
  All you need is a popular tweet.
- commandlinefan 7y ago
  There's actually a whole book about this: https://www.amazon.com/How-Destroy-Man-Now-DAMN/dp/099982032X/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2SC6NW5NGQUD5&keywords=how+to+destroy+a+man+now&qid=1558366300&s=gateway&sprefix=how+to+destroy+a+m%2Caps%2C139&sr=8-1 https://www.amazon.com/How-Destroy-Man-Now-DAMN/dp/099982032...
bjourne 7y ago
> Ugh. This is predictable in the age of guilty til proven innocent isn't it? When an accusation is enough to tank a career then yes people are going to feel the need to protect themselves by removing any possibility of that happening. When has one accusation been enough to tank a person's career? Do you have an example? Of one accusation - not several dozen accusations from several dozen parties spread out over a period of decades.
- erentz 7y ago
  It sounds like your proposal would be to properly allay fears that unfounded accusations can be damaging and reassure men that women aren’t as sensitive as they may fear. Which accepts the premise of what I’ve said and concurs that this article perpetuates the problem. The next thing is how do we do that not just in tech, but wider society since wider society influences such fears?
- dghughes 7y ago
  The two guys joked to themselves about dongles at a conference when a woman (not part of the conversation) took offense and tweeted about it in real time. The men were escorted out and both lost their jobs. https://techcrunch.com/2013/03/21/a-dongle-joke-that-spiraled-way-out-of-control/ https://techcrunch.com/2013/03/21/a-dongle-joke-that-spirale... And not quite related but somewhat. Here in Canada a man named Lorne Grabher has had a custom license plate GRABHER lost it due to a single complaint. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/grabher-licence-plate-heads-to-nova-scotia-supreme-court-1.5108121 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/grabher-licence-p...
  - vkou 7y ago
    That's not an isolated accusation of something inappropriate that happened behind closed doors. That's a verified (By all parties involved) example of unprofessional behavior in a professional, public space. When you attend a conference with a laptop plastered with corporate stickers, you represent your employer. Try to act like a professional, when you do so. And you're seriously grasping at straws with that second link.
  - 7y ago

by erentz 7y ago

vkou 7y ago

An unsubstantiated accusation is not enough to tank a career. A cross-correlated one, from multiple independent reports is another story. As is one that stands up to cross-examination and scrutiny. Reporting harassment by your manager is just as likely, if not moreso to shit on your career, as it is on theirs. They have all the power in this relationship, and every opportunity to retaliate if you aren't believed.

LowLevelHacker 7y ago
I've seen it, a life ruined because of it
erentz 7y ago
What's your explanation for the change reported in the article? TFA says "60% of male managers say they are uncomfortable performing common workplace activities such as mentoring, working one on one, or socializing with a woman." TFA's only suggestion for a cause is because these men are "unable to control themselves while talking to a woman in the conference room." Do you believe the problem is really that 60% of men are unable to control themselves? There's a problem here, a real problem, but perpetuating ideas such as this really isn't a good way to start solving that problem.
hansflying 7y ago
Man’s life ‘destroyed’ following classmate’s false rape allegation: https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/mans-life-destroyed-following-classmates-false-rape-allegation/news-story/05ba6eeffae4791c3b99993634afa226 https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/mans-life-destro...
- vkou 7y ago
  And every year, the stars align, and some single-digit number of people get eaten by sharks. That doesn't mean that 'getting eaten by sharks' is something you should be particularly worried about.
htkibar 7y ago
All you need is a popular tweet.
commandlinefan 7y ago
There's actually a whole book about this: https://www.amazon.com/How-Destroy-Man-Now-DAMN/dp/099982032X/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2SC6NW5NGQUD5&keywords=how+to+destroy+a+man+now&qid=1558366300&s=gateway&sprefix=how+to+destroy+a+m%2Caps%2C139&sr=8-1 https://www.amazon.com/How-Destroy-Man-Now-DAMN/dp/099982032...

bjourne 7y ago

> Ugh. This is predictable in the age of guilty til proven innocent isn't it? When an accusation is enough to tank a career then yes people are going to feel the need to protect themselves by removing any possibility of that happening. When has one accusation been enough to tank a person's career? Do you have an example? Of one accusation - not several dozen accusations from several dozen parties spread out over a period of decades.

erentz 7y ago
It sounds like your proposal would be to properly allay fears that unfounded accusations can be damaging and reassure men that women aren’t as sensitive as they may fear. Which accepts the premise of what I’ve said and concurs that this article perpetuates the problem. The next thing is how do we do that not just in tech, but wider society since wider society influences such fears?
dghughes 7y ago
The two guys joked to themselves about dongles at a conference when a woman (not part of the conversation) took offense and tweeted about it in real time. The men were escorted out and both lost their jobs. https://techcrunch.com/2013/03/21/a-dongle-joke-that-spiraled-way-out-of-control/ https://techcrunch.com/2013/03/21/a-dongle-joke-that-spirale... And not quite related but somewhat. Here in Canada a man named Lorne Grabher has had a custom license plate GRABHER lost it due to a single complaint. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/grabher-licence-plate-heads-to-nova-scotia-supreme-court-1.5108121 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/grabher-licence-p...
- vkou 7y ago
  That's not an isolated accusation of something inappropriate that happened behind closed doors. That's a verified (By all parties involved) example of unprofessional behavior in a professional, public space. When you attend a conference with a laptop plastered with corporate stickers, you represent your employer. Try to act like a professional, when you do so. And you're seriously grasping at straws with that second link.
- 7y ago