5 ms·

China recalls giant pandas from San Diego Zoo amid U.S. trade war

29 points by ycombonator 7y ago

duxup 7y ago
I always thought the pandas were a sort of friendly good will gesture that didn't cost them much, seems like an odd olive branch to withdraw that I guess might play well in China, but it's not like it would change many opinions in the US. Seems like a silly thing to withdraw. If anything this seems like the sort of no cost good will thing you LEAN ON in tough times.
citilife 7y ago
The U.S. effectively is trying to cripple a few major corporations from China... their response is "I'm going to take my Panda back" I don't really see China's negotiating position here, but if that's what they can do - then the U.S. definitely has the leverage.
- pgeorgi 7y ago
  It's not an economic tool but one of diplomacy (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panda_diplomacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panda_diplomacy), and the action now is likely more of a signal to the Chinese people than to the American.
- blisterpeanuts 7y ago
  The Chinese also didn't think this through very clearly; environmentalist types who love the pandas are probably not pro-Trump.
  - gremlinsinc 7y ago
    No but this gives progressives even more fuel for the fire of discontent, maybe it encourages one more person to jump off the Trump train, doubtful, but it adds more sour to the GOP brand, and they already make warheads seem like werther's originals.
- Spooky23 7y ago
  It's a way to signal displeasure in a diplomatic way. It's not about a bear, it's about taking back a gift. Diplomacy is more about subtlety. US headlines are dominated by our administration's boorish behavior and we don't get a good picture. The reality is that these issues are more nuanced, and China can achieve outcomes that benefit them in different ways. A common narrative that the BRIC countries are developing is that the US is too volatile to deal with. Re: leverage, at the end of the day, the US doesn't have the capability to do lots of manufacturing. Our primary export to China is cash. We don't have the machinists, don't have the ability to train for the skills needed to manufacture, and will need to buy tooling from China. Real competitive pressure is decades away. The vaporization of commercial banking means that nobody will be building factories either. Tariffs generate revenue and are regressive, but ultimately you need to get your iPhone somewhere, and the fabs for SSD, memory, etc and a million other components are located mostly in China. Forget about this as a "trade deal", it's a tax increase.
  - Fjolsvith 7y ago
    > Re: leverage, at the end of the day, the US doesn't have the capability to do lots of manufacturing. Our primary export to China is cash. We don't have the machinists, don't have the ability to train for the skills needed to manufacture, and will need to buy tooling from China. This is not a problem for the US. Companies have accelerated a shift of manufacturing to other Asian countries during the last year [1]. As far back as 2013, China was facing an exodus of factories [2]. > Real competitive pressure is decades away. I doubt this. Although some opinions say China has more leverage than the US [3], "The country’s heavy debts, built up over years of lending used to spur growth, limit its options. If it retaliates against the United States sharply by devaluing its currency or shutting factories crucial to global supply chains, the moves could ricochet and hurt its own newfound wealth. ... Its tremendous success in nurturing its own homegrown industries, which has helped China’s economy rise up the value chain, has reduced its imports of American goods, giving it fewer items to hit with tariffs." [4]. 1. https://www.theepochtimes.com/us-tariffs-adds-financial-pressure-to-foreign-manufacturers-in-china-pushing-them-to-leave_2610229.html https://www.theepochtimes.com/us-tariffs-adds-financial-pres... 2. https://www.mckinsey.com/business-functions/operations/our-insights/a-new-era-for-manufacturing-in-china https://www.mckinsey.com/business-functions/operations/our-i... 3. https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2019/05/china-has-more-leverage-thank-you-think-trade-war/589726/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2019/05/ch... 4. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/17/business/china-trade-influence.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/17/business/china-trade-infl...
steve76 7y ago
Tempers may flare and return to friendships. Influences of nations wax and wane. The dead really do not care if they sleep forever or rise again, and cities burnt never are fully rebuilt. Marxists today face a decision between war or suicide. What they believe in just isn't true. There's no dialectic, no progression of thesis, antithesis and synthesis. It's all just brute force, no room for thought or planning when hundreds of millions are horribly butchered and starved to death. There's no romanticism behind it. It's vulgar, humanity's greatest crime, and the shame of the world. Very much so, technology is at a point where it's limited by the faults of all. Heart surgeons cannot research when they are doing a million bypasses a day. Cancer surgeons have to deal with gluttony and lust instead of uplifting humanity. Humans have done everything except learn how not to kill one another. Men, women, children really are God killers.
NotPaidToPost 7y ago
This article is 2 days old and this had been announced in March. [0] The loan agreement was coming to an end in late April and the Chinese said that they would not renew it. It's not quite the same as deciding to take them back in retaliation to the last round of tariffs/anti-Huawei measures. [0] https://phys.org/news/2019-03-zoo-beloved-giant-pandas-china.html https://phys.org/news/2019-03-zoo-beloved-giant-pandas-china...
dangero 7y ago
How do we know that the panda recall is tied to the trade war? Makes no sense since the article mentions that several other zoos in the US still have pandas. This seems like clickbait.
Digory 7y ago
Not directly tied to the trade war. China has been declining to renew all of the international panda "loans" as they expire. They now have the breeding expertise in country. So it isn't retaliation, just another example of how China treats foreign "partners" after the IP is transferred.
- duxup 7y ago
  >They now have the breeding expertise in country. I thought that was always the case.
  - Digory 7y ago
    Captive breeding for conservation has been a long term issue, and needed international help. There's a reason the World Wildlife Fund's logo is a panda. https://www.fws.gov/international/animals/giant-pandas.html https://www.fws.gov/international/animals/giant-pandas.html
    - duxup 7y ago
      I still thought that most breeding was always done in China.
logfromblammo 7y ago
Seems like an odd gesture of annoyance. It's not like there can be that many people that go to the San Diego Zoo just to see the pandas. From what I can see in the article, China "loans" their female panda to SDZ, then she gets pregnant, delivers babies, and they get shipped back to China when they are weaned. It really sounds like a good deal for them--SDZ takes care of the animal at their own expense and periodically sends back babies. China can't recall the panda expertise of the zookeepers in San Diego--or the panda habitat and operations funding--along with the panda, so if the recalled female fails to get pregnant while in China, that's a loss for the worldwide panda conservation program. SDZ visitors will still be in one of the largest zoos in the entire world, and can walk past the closed exhibit to the next one. It's like National Lampoon's "buy this magazine or we will shoot this dog" issue, except not a joke. "Lower your tariffs or we will threaten this species?"
ngcc_hk 7y ago
Anyway it is another export. When one can import - wharsapp, google play, Facebook, hackers, news, ... to china.

29 points by ycombonator 7y ago

I always thought the pandas were a sort of friendly good will gesture that didn't cost them much, seems like an odd olive branch to withdraw that I guess might play well in China, but it's not like it would change many opinions in the US. Seems like a silly thing to withdraw. If anything this seems like the sort of no cost good will thing you LEAN ON in tough times.

citilife 7y ago

The U.S. effectively is trying to cripple a few major corporations from China... their response is "I'm going to take my Panda back" I don't really see China's negotiating position here, but if that's what they can do - then the U.S. definitely has the leverage.

pgeorgi 7y ago
It's not an economic tool but one of diplomacy (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panda_diplomacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panda_diplomacy), and the action now is likely more of a signal to the Chinese people than to the American.
blisterpeanuts 7y ago
The Chinese also didn't think this through very clearly; environmentalist types who love the pandas are probably not pro-Trump.
- gremlinsinc 7y ago
  No but this gives progressives even more fuel for the fire of discontent, maybe it encourages one more person to jump off the Trump train, doubtful, but it adds more sour to the GOP brand, and they already make warheads seem like werther's originals.
Spooky23 7y ago
It's a way to signal displeasure in a diplomatic way. It's not about a bear, it's about taking back a gift. Diplomacy is more about subtlety. US headlines are dominated by our administration's boorish behavior and we don't get a good picture. The reality is that these issues are more nuanced, and China can achieve outcomes that benefit them in different ways. A common narrative that the BRIC countries are developing is that the US is too volatile to deal with. Re: leverage, at the end of the day, the US doesn't have the capability to do lots of manufacturing. Our primary export to China is cash. We don't have the machinists, don't have the ability to train for the skills needed to manufacture, and will need to buy tooling from China. Real competitive pressure is decades away. The vaporization of commercial banking means that nobody will be building factories either. Tariffs generate revenue and are regressive, but ultimately you need to get your iPhone somewhere, and the fabs for SSD, memory, etc and a million other components are located mostly in China. Forget about this as a "trade deal", it's a tax increase.
- Fjolsvith 7y ago
  > Re: leverage, at the end of the day, the US doesn't have the capability to do lots of manufacturing. Our primary export to China is cash. We don't have the machinists, don't have the ability to train for the skills needed to manufacture, and will need to buy tooling from China. This is not a problem for the US. Companies have accelerated a shift of manufacturing to other Asian countries during the last year [1]. As far back as 2013, China was facing an exodus of factories [2]. > Real competitive pressure is decades away. I doubt this. Although some opinions say China has more leverage than the US [3], "The country’s heavy debts, built up over years of lending used to spur growth, limit its options. If it retaliates against the United States sharply by devaluing its currency or shutting factories crucial to global supply chains, the moves could ricochet and hurt its own newfound wealth. ... Its tremendous success in nurturing its own homegrown industries, which has helped China’s economy rise up the value chain, has reduced its imports of American goods, giving it fewer items to hit with tariffs." [4]. 1. https://www.theepochtimes.com/us-tariffs-adds-financial-pressure-to-foreign-manufacturers-in-china-pushing-them-to-leave_2610229.html https://www.theepochtimes.com/us-tariffs-adds-financial-pres... 2. https://www.mckinsey.com/business-functions/operations/our-insights/a-new-era-for-manufacturing-in-china https://www.mckinsey.com/business-functions/operations/our-i... 3. https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2019/05/china-has-more-leverage-thank-you-think-trade-war/589726/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2019/05/ch... 4. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/17/business/china-trade-influence.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/17/business/china-trade-infl...

steve76 7y ago

Tempers may flare and return to friendships. Influences of nations wax and wane. The dead really do not care if they sleep forever or rise again, and cities burnt never are fully rebuilt. Marxists today face a decision between war or suicide. What they believe in just isn't true. There's no dialectic, no progression of thesis, antithesis and synthesis. It's all just brute force, no room for thought or planning when hundreds of millions are horribly butchered and starved to death. There's no romanticism behind it. It's vulgar, humanity's greatest crime, and the shame of the world. Very much so, technology is at a point where it's limited by the faults of all. Heart surgeons cannot research when they are doing a million bypasses a day. Cancer surgeons have to deal with gluttony and lust instead of uplifting humanity. Humans have done everything except learn how not to kill one another. Men, women, children really are God killers.

NotPaidToPost 7y ago

This article is 2 days old and this had been announced in March. [0] The loan agreement was coming to an end in late April and the Chinese said that they would not renew it. It's not quite the same as deciding to take them back in retaliation to the last round of tariffs/anti-Huawei measures. [0] https://phys.org/news/2019-03-zoo-beloved-giant-pandas-china.html https://phys.org/news/2019-03-zoo-beloved-giant-pandas-china...

dangero 7y ago

How do we know that the panda recall is tied to the trade war? Makes no sense since the article mentions that several other zoos in the US still have pandas. This seems like clickbait.

Digory 7y ago

Not directly tied to the trade war. China has been declining to renew all of the international panda "loans" as they expire. They now have the breeding expertise in country. So it isn't retaliation, just another example of how China treats foreign "partners" after the IP is transferred.

duxup 7y ago
>They now have the breeding expertise in country. I thought that was always the case.
- Digory 7y ago
  Captive breeding for conservation has been a long term issue, and needed international help. There's a reason the World Wildlife Fund's logo is a panda. https://www.fws.gov/international/animals/giant-pandas.html https://www.fws.gov/international/animals/giant-pandas.html
  - duxup 7y ago
    I still thought that most breeding was always done in China.

logfromblammo 7y ago

Seems like an odd gesture of annoyance. It's not like there can be that many people that go to the San Diego Zoo just to see the pandas. From what I can see in the article, China "loans" their female panda to SDZ, then she gets pregnant, delivers babies, and they get shipped back to China when they are weaned. It really sounds like a good deal for them--SDZ takes care of the animal at their own expense and periodically sends back babies. China can't recall the panda expertise of the zookeepers in San Diego--or the panda habitat and operations funding--along with the panda, so if the recalled female fails to get pregnant while in China, that's a loss for the worldwide panda conservation program. SDZ visitors will still be in one of the largest zoos in the entire world, and can walk past the closed exhibit to the next one. It's like National Lampoon's "buy this magazine or we will shoot this dog" issue, except not a joke. "Lower your tariffs or we will threaten this species?"

ngcc_hk 7y ago

Anyway it is another export. When one can import - wharsapp, google play, Facebook, hackers, news, ... to china.