4 ms·

How is it fraud?

bena 7y ago
I would imagine he sees it as fraud because these are drivers who are ready and willing to drive and are waiting on fares but are not indicated on the app as so. So when someone uses the app to find out about nearby rides, it shows no one, then it ups the rate to try and lure further drivers. Or the few drivers that are on the app currently. Then when the price is "right", all the waiting cars turn on the app at once to get the "surge" price. These people are exploiting the rules of the system to violate the spirit of the system. The more available cars, the lower the price. The more people find out that drivers are doing this, the more likely some form of retaliation will follow. Either users will just start using cabs again because the price is no different or they'll do something else. Like give default bad reviews to any airport trip that they suspect of manipulating surge pricing.
- eropple 7y ago
  Drivers are not ready and willing to drive. They are ready and willing to drive for a higher rate. Lyft and Uber provide that higher rate when there is sufficient demand and insufficient supply. Working as designed, yo. Multi-billion-dollar companies do not need you to cape up for them. Somehow, somehow, they will survive against those mendacious poor people who have found a way to represent their requirements to the company.
  - bena 7y ago
    Where did I say this was a good or bad thing? Nowhere. I described things that could happen if the practice becomes too exploitative. Also, I can see the argument that it violates the TOS for the drivers. The drivers agree to drive for the price determined by the service. They are then using exploits to manipulate that price. If they don't want to drive for X fare, then they shouldn't be in their car. And this is an incredibly complicated situation because there are at least three different principles involved. The driver, the company, and the passenger. In some way, the passenger is being taken advantage of. The passenger _also_ has a contract with the company. And that part assumes that the price is determined fairly and not being manipulated by outside forces.
    - mikeash 7y ago
      When these services first introduced surge pricing, they told us that it was a good thing because it encourages more drivers to get on the road and take care of demand. It’s working exactly as designed.
      - bena 7y ago
        The drivers are already there though. They've already committed to taking these passengers. Imagine walking up to a taxi and having them say "wait 5 minutes until I can charge you more".
        mikeash 7y ago
        They’re not in any way committed. Imagine waking up to a taxi and offering $10 to go somewhere, and they tell you no thanks but they’ll do it for $15. These drivers are just negotiating the price. The platform tries to block negotiation but it does not quite succeed.
        bena 7y ago
        You think that's why taxis maybe have the regulations they do? You get in a taxi and you know the base rate and the metered rate. And taxis can't adjust the rate either. They don't get to argue and neither do you. The problem I have with this isn't that negotiation is happening, is that it's happening between the wrong parties.
        mikeash 7y ago
        Taxi prices are regulated because negotiation was too difficult in the pre-smartphone era and taxi drivers would take advantage of information asymmetry to screw people. None of that applies here. The negotiation is happening between the drivers and passengers, which is how it should be. Uber and Lyft are acting as intermediaries, and are trying and failing to stop this negotiation.

How is it fraud?

bena 7y ago

I would imagine he sees it as fraud because these are drivers who are ready and willing to drive and are waiting on fares but are not indicated on the app as so. So when someone uses the app to find out about nearby rides, it shows no one, then it ups the rate to try and lure further drivers. Or the few drivers that are on the app currently. Then when the price is "right", all the waiting cars turn on the app at once to get the "surge" price. These people are exploiting the rules of the system to violate the spirit of the system. The more available cars, the lower the price. The more people find out that drivers are doing this, the more likely some form of retaliation will follow. Either users will just start using cabs again because the price is no different or they'll do something else. Like give default bad reviews to any airport trip that they suspect of manipulating surge pricing.

eropple 7y ago
Drivers are not ready and willing to drive. They are ready and willing to drive for a higher rate. Lyft and Uber provide that higher rate when there is sufficient demand and insufficient supply. Working as designed, yo. Multi-billion-dollar companies do not need you to cape up for them. Somehow, somehow, they will survive against those mendacious poor people who have found a way to represent their requirements to the company.
- bena 7y ago
  Where did I say this was a good or bad thing? Nowhere. I described things that could happen if the practice becomes too exploitative. Also, I can see the argument that it violates the TOS for the drivers. The drivers agree to drive for the price determined by the service. They are then using exploits to manipulate that price. If they don't want to drive for X fare, then they shouldn't be in their car. And this is an incredibly complicated situation because there are at least three different principles involved. The driver, the company, and the passenger. In some way, the passenger is being taken advantage of. The passenger _also_ has a contract with the company. And that part assumes that the price is determined fairly and not being manipulated by outside forces.
  - mikeash 7y ago
    When these services first introduced surge pricing, they told us that it was a good thing because it encourages more drivers to get on the road and take care of demand. It’s working exactly as designed.
    - bena 7y ago
      The drivers are already there though. They've already committed to taking these passengers. Imagine walking up to a taxi and having them say "wait 5 minutes until I can charge you more".
      - mikeash 7y ago
        They’re not in any way committed. Imagine waking up to a taxi and offering $10 to go somewhere, and they tell you no thanks but they’ll do it for $15. These drivers are just negotiating the price. The platform tries to block negotiation but it does not quite succeed.
        bena 7y ago
        You think that's why taxis maybe have the regulations they do? You get in a taxi and you know the base rate and the metered rate. And taxis can't adjust the rate either. They don't get to argue and neither do you. The problem I have with this isn't that negotiation is happening, is that it's happening between the wrong parties.
        mikeash 7y ago
        Taxi prices are regulated because negotiation was too difficult in the pre-smartphone era and taxi drivers would take advantage of information asymmetry to screw people. None of that applies here. The negotiation is happening between the drivers and passengers, which is how it should be. Uber and Lyft are acting as intermediaries, and are trying and failing to stop this negotiation.