6 ms·

In terms of the monster I want living in my attic, I won't swap the US for China any day soon.

VBprogrammer 7y ago
I've occasionally rationalised this on the basis that I'd rather China knew everything about me than the US on the basis that I visit the US once every few years and am relatively unlikely to visit China.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- threeseed 7y ago
  You know that China has for a long time has been secretly kidnapping people in other countries: https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/03/29/the-disappeared-china-renditions-kidnapping/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/03/29/the-disappeared-china-r...
  - faissaloo 7y ago
    Yeah but so does America lol
  - cstross 7y ago
    When the USA does that, it's called Extraordinary Rendition: https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/voices/20-extraordinary-facts-about-cia-extraordinary-rendition-and-secret-detention https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/voices/20-extraordina... Their main claim to legality is sufficiently questionable that they legislated to deny officers of the International Criminal Court entry to the USA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_the_International_Criminal_Court https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_the_Internat...
    - vinay427 7y ago
      The GP's point was that not planning to travel to China doesn't eliminate the consequences of trusting China. Trusting the US was already stated to be a problem because they travel there.
  - brutally-honest 7y ago
    So has the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition
  - VBprogrammer 7y ago
    To be fair, I also don't go out of my way to piss either of them off.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
klingonopera 7y ago
But we only have a monster in the attic, because we choose to choose one of those two. I believe that's the point the article is trying to make: That the EU should stand up and be an actual 3rd party and possibly mediate between China and USA. But then the article also concludes that it's not surprising that doesn't happen considering the parties in Europe.
- duxup 7y ago
  What would "mediate" mean? The EU is hardly in a position to actually address any security concerns.
  - acqq 7y ago
    > The EU is hardly in a position to actually address any security concerns. Why?
    - sgt101 7y ago
      Because all the nations of Europe have significantly under invested in defence and security for decades. 'catchup' would require 30 -60%of one years EU gdp over 5-10years + current spend... Until that happens the EU is a spectator or victim.
      - klingonopera 7y ago
        We wouldn't need that much defense if we play out the US and China and Russia against each other. Apart from that - I had suspected that "security" meant "defense" and I think this is far less important globally, than many would like to believe. Of course if you're a country that doesn't know how to negotiate and compromise and do politics, all you'd know is military intervention.
        duxup 7y ago
        >We wouldn't need that much defense if we play out the US and China and Russia against each other. How does that work? If anything European history shows how non major players become the chips the players play for / the worst consequences land on them.
SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago
Whataboutism. Have you considered the option of no monster at all?
- uranusjr 7y ago
  Yes I have. My conclusion to the thought experiment is that it is irrelevant. History shows that in the face of one monster you can’t control, the only solution is to build your own. De-weaponise the only opponent it has always ends with the monster destroying everything you endear.
throwaway546783 7y ago
I don’t doubt that you would, like majority of people in the anglo-euro-sphere, because USA gives us Hollywood with an endless stream of sexy and explosive propaganda, and they dominate the mainstream narrative. But it is naive to trust them, or anyone for that matter, don’t forget that USA has been in war throughout its existence, not just that, its whole existence is a by product of colonialism; but we don’t have to go that far, USA happily did business with Nazis and today they’re happily doing business with Israel, disregarding the injustices against Jews in the first instance, and Palestinians today. You can’t make friends with monsters.

I've occasionally rationalised this on the basis that I'd rather China knew everything about me than the US on the basis that I visit the US once every few years and am relatively unlikely to visit China.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
threeseed 7y ago
You know that China has for a long time has been secretly kidnapping people in other countries: https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/03/29/the-disappeared-china-renditions-kidnapping/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/03/29/the-disappeared-china-r...
- faissaloo 7y ago
  Yeah but so does America lol
- cstross 7y ago
  When the USA does that, it's called Extraordinary Rendition: https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/voices/20-extraordinary-facts-about-cia-extraordinary-rendition-and-secret-detention https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/voices/20-extraordina... Their main claim to legality is sufficiently questionable that they legislated to deny officers of the International Criminal Court entry to the USA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_the_International_Criminal_Court https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_the_Internat...
  - vinay427 7y ago
    The GP's point was that not planning to travel to China doesn't eliminate the consequences of trusting China. Trusting the US was already stated to be a problem because they travel there.
- brutally-honest 7y ago
  So has the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition
- VBprogrammer 7y ago
  To be fair, I also don't go out of my way to piss either of them off.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

klingonopera 7y ago

But we only have a monster in the attic, because we choose to choose one of those two. I believe that's the point the article is trying to make: That the EU should stand up and be an actual 3rd party and possibly mediate between China and USA. But then the article also concludes that it's not surprising that doesn't happen considering the parties in Europe.

duxup 7y ago
What would "mediate" mean? The EU is hardly in a position to actually address any security concerns.
- acqq 7y ago
  > The EU is hardly in a position to actually address any security concerns. Why?
  - sgt101 7y ago
    Because all the nations of Europe have significantly under invested in defence and security for decades. 'catchup' would require 30 -60%of one years EU gdp over 5-10years + current spend... Until that happens the EU is a spectator or victim.
    - klingonopera 7y ago
      We wouldn't need that much defense if we play out the US and China and Russia against each other. Apart from that - I had suspected that "security" meant "defense" and I think this is far less important globally, than many would like to believe. Of course if you're a country that doesn't know how to negotiate and compromise and do politics, all you'd know is military intervention.
      - duxup 7y ago
        >We wouldn't need that much defense if we play out the US and China and Russia against each other. How does that work? If anything European history shows how non major players become the chips the players play for / the worst consequences land on them.

SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago

Whataboutism. Have you considered the option of no monster at all?

uranusjr 7y ago
Yes I have. My conclusion to the thought experiment is that it is irrelevant. History shows that in the face of one monster you can’t control, the only solution is to build your own. De-weaponise the only opponent it has always ends with the monster destroying everything you endear.

throwaway546783 7y ago

I don’t doubt that you would, like majority of people in the anglo-euro-sphere, because USA gives us Hollywood with an endless stream of sexy and explosive propaganda, and they dominate the mainstream narrative. But it is naive to trust them, or anyone for that matter, don’t forget that USA has been in war throughout its existence, not just that, its whole existence is a by product of colonialism; but we don’t have to go that far, USA happily did business with Nazis and today they’re happily doing business with Israel, disregarding the injustices against Jews in the first instance, and Palestinians today. You can’t make friends with monsters.