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What happened to Stella Liebeck was terrible, but it was no one's fault more than her own. Stella's coffee was served within the temperature range that was, an

What happened to Stella Liebeck was terrible, but it was no one's fault more than her own. Stella's coffee was served within the temperature range that was, and still is, recommended by professional coffee associations like SCAA and NCA [1]. As of 2019, the NCA recommends that coffee be held and served at around 180-185 deg F (~80-85 deg C), which is likely near the temperature at which Stella was burned. This is a perfectly reasonable service temperature, widely used by coffee shops, restaurants, and home brewing machines to this day. Stella Liebeck took her cup of coffee and squeezed it between her legs in order to fiddle with the lid. The result was tragic, but completely expected. If I spill a fresh cup of Starbucks coffee on my crotch today, I fully expect third-degree burns. So I take a little extra care with it until it has cooled to drinking temperature, which happens pretty quickly. Tea is generally even hotter. Any good tea shop will serve a pot of freshly boiled water, at least twenty degrees hotter than hot coffee. Spilling that on yourself is guaranteed to melt your skin. Great care is warranted. Again, what happened to Stella was terrible. She didn't deserve it, and she didn't deserve the hate she got afterward. But she did something really stupid. I sympathize, because I do stupid stuff all the time, and I have the scars to remind me. We're surrounded by extremely dangerous things that require great care to use properly. It's useful for coffee to be held and served hot, just as it's useful for knives to be sharp and cars to be able to reach highway speeds. There will inevitably be accidents, but making the world completely safe for people who use these things carelessly would mean depriving everyone of their proper use. 1 - https://www.ncausa.org/About-Coffee/How-to-Brew-Coffee https://www.ncausa.org/About-Coffee/How-to-Brew-Coffee

stordoff 7y ago
> Tea is generally even hotter. Any good tea shop will serve a pot of freshly boiled water, at least twenty degrees hotter than hot coffee. Depends on the tea. Most of the recommendations I see are below boiling: > white and green teas are best at 70°c. For black and oolong teas use water around 85°c. For herbal infusions use 100°c water, and 90°c for Chamomile. https://www.rareteacompany.com/perfect-cup/how-to-make-the-perfect-cup-of-tea https://www.rareteacompany.com/perfect-cup/how-to-make-the-p... > Once your kettle is boiled with fresh water you need to leave it for a few minutes to cool down. https://www.twinings.co.uk/about-twinings/latest-news-and-articles/how-to-make-tea-perfectly https://www.twinings.co.uk/about-twinings/latest-news-and-ar...
- nate_meurer 7y ago
  "Depends on the tea" is absolutely right, but that website makes some odd claims. It reads like a content mill. Their claim that black tea should be steeped at 85 deg C is simply wrong. I don't know where they got that. Black teas are universally recognized to require the highest steeping temperatures, to the point that high-altitude brewing is a problem for many folks. The claim that green tea is best steeped at 70 deg C is similarly useless, simply because there are so many kinds of green tea. Really sweet, amino-heavy teas like a good gyokuro are definitely better done at lower temperatures. But most green teas are quite forgiving, and are commonly brewed at near boiling temperatures. Freshly boiled hot water is also often necessary for herbals, especially short-steeping acidic herbals like hibiscus and fruit. Mate is uniformly prepared and served at around 180 deg F in my experience. Don't spill that shit either. I've noticed a trend in recent years for tea retailers to lace their marketing with fancy instructions that treat their teas like autistic children, demanding gentle temperatures and strict timing rules. This started as a uniquely American bit of marketing wank, but it seems to be spreading recently. For a rebuttal with the credibility of an old-fashioned Englishman, here's Ginger Baker in an interview in Forbes a few years back: > One thing that really bothers me in America is the inability of restaurants to make a good cup of tea. The instructions printed on the bag say, "Pour boiling water over the tea." How simple is that? No, they bring you an empty cup with an unopened tea bag beside it – how nice - and a pot of water that may be hot, but boiling it isn’t. So tea you have not. It’s boiling water that brings out tea’s flavor, and perhaps a dash of milk. But the brown liquid you end up with here looks like gnat’s pee, and has nothing to do with a really good cup of tea. Even notwithstanding individual preferences, if you go to any good tea shop you're highly likely to be served a pot of freshly boiled water, which may still be well over 200 deg F by the time you pour it. A hazardous substance to be sure.
  - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
    Agreed. Black tea will never brew properly at 85° - personally I'd throw that gnat's pee away and try and get it right the second time. As near to 100 as you can manage, which means warm the pot or mug first - though most don't. Pot with loose leaf is much preferable. Let it brew to taste.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
robocat 7y ago
She was 79 and she actually wanted milk/cream with it so she could drink it. But, yes, it was her fault. However it was also McDonald's fault. That was the reason for sueing, and the jury agreed. > but making the world completely safe for people who use these things carelessly would mean depriving everyone of their proper use Why would you argue that it is a binary choice between personal responsibility, or complete abrogation of responsibility?
- nate_meurer 7y ago
  > However it was also McDonald's fault. At the risk of repeating myself: when Stella was injured, McDonalds' corporate policy required coffee to be held at 180-190 deg F [1]. This is pretty well in line with the range recommended by professional coffee associations like the NCA, who currently recommend that coffee be held and served at around 180-185 deg F (~80-85 deg C) [2]. This temperature range was, and still is, used by nearly every coffee shop, restaurant, and domestic coffee machine. Starbucks regularly serves even hotter coffee. My Mr. Coffee machine holds coffee at around 185 deg F. So does your's. Look it up. And like I said, any good tea shop will serve you a pot of much hotter, nearly boiling water. Well over 200 deg F. So if you really think McDonalds was negligent in serving coffee in compliance with recognized industry standards, then you must think every other coffee shop, tea shop, restaurant, and home coffee machine maker is also potentially guilty of negligence. Is that what you think? Thankfully, the verdict against McDonalds in Stella's case was a pretty isolated result, and personally injury lawyers have moved on to suing over defective lids, rather than excessive temperatures [3]. Notice that in the linked case, Starbucks served 190 deg coffee, hotter than what Stella was injured by, yet they were not sued for the temperature, but rather a lid that came off too easily. > Why would you argue that it is a binary choice between personal responsibility, or complete abrogation of responsibility? That's the choice forced on us by frivolous lawsuits like this. Thankfully, that false choice has been thoroughly ignored, and we can still get appropriately hot coffee from establishments and our own coffee machines. 1 - http://web.archive.org/web/20031223003746/http://www.reedmorganpc.com/wsj_coffee.htm http://web.archive.org/web/20031223003746/http://www.reedmor... 2 - https://www.ncausa.org/About-Coffee/How-to-Brew-Coffee https://www.ncausa.org/About-Coffee/How-to-Brew-Coffee 3 - https://www.eater.com/2017/5/19/15662790/starbucks-hot-coffee-lawsuit-florida-100k https://www.eater.com/2017/5/19/15662790/starbucks-hot-coffe...

stordoff 7y ago

> Tea is generally even hotter. Any good tea shop will serve a pot of freshly boiled water, at least twenty degrees hotter than hot coffee. Depends on the tea. Most of the recommendations I see are below boiling: > white and green teas are best at 70°c. For black and oolong teas use water around 85°c. For herbal infusions use 100°c water, and 90°c for Chamomile. https://www.rareteacompany.com/perfect-cup/how-to-make-the-perfect-cup-of-tea https://www.rareteacompany.com/perfect-cup/how-to-make-the-p... > Once your kettle is boiled with fresh water you need to leave it for a few minutes to cool down. https://www.twinings.co.uk/about-twinings/latest-news-and-articles/how-to-make-tea-perfectly https://www.twinings.co.uk/about-twinings/latest-news-and-ar...

nate_meurer 7y ago
"Depends on the tea" is absolutely right, but that website makes some odd claims. It reads like a content mill. Their claim that black tea should be steeped at 85 deg C is simply wrong. I don't know where they got that. Black teas are universally recognized to require the highest steeping temperatures, to the point that high-altitude brewing is a problem for many folks. The claim that green tea is best steeped at 70 deg C is similarly useless, simply because there are so many kinds of green tea. Really sweet, amino-heavy teas like a good gyokuro are definitely better done at lower temperatures. But most green teas are quite forgiving, and are commonly brewed at near boiling temperatures. Freshly boiled hot water is also often necessary for herbals, especially short-steeping acidic herbals like hibiscus and fruit. Mate is uniformly prepared and served at around 180 deg F in my experience. Don't spill that shit either. I've noticed a trend in recent years for tea retailers to lace their marketing with fancy instructions that treat their teas like autistic children, demanding gentle temperatures and strict timing rules. This started as a uniquely American bit of marketing wank, but it seems to be spreading recently. For a rebuttal with the credibility of an old-fashioned Englishman, here's Ginger Baker in an interview in Forbes a few years back: > One thing that really bothers me in America is the inability of restaurants to make a good cup of tea. The instructions printed on the bag say, "Pour boiling water over the tea." How simple is that? No, they bring you an empty cup with an unopened tea bag beside it – how nice - and a pot of water that may be hot, but boiling it isn’t. So tea you have not. It’s boiling water that brings out tea’s flavor, and perhaps a dash of milk. But the brown liquid you end up with here looks like gnat’s pee, and has nothing to do with a really good cup of tea. Even notwithstanding individual preferences, if you go to any good tea shop you're highly likely to be served a pot of freshly boiled water, which may still be well over 200 deg F by the time you pour it. A hazardous substance to be sure.
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
  Agreed. Black tea will never brew properly at 85° - personally I'd throw that gnat's pee away and try and get it right the second time. As near to 100 as you can manage, which means warm the pot or mug first - though most don't. Pot with loose leaf is much preferable. Let it brew to taste.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

robocat 7y ago

She was 79 and she actually wanted milk/cream with it so she could drink it. But, yes, it was her fault. However it was also McDonald's fault. That was the reason for sueing, and the jury agreed. > but making the world completely safe for people who use these things carelessly would mean depriving everyone of their proper use Why would you argue that it is a binary choice between personal responsibility, or complete abrogation of responsibility?

nate_meurer 7y ago
> However it was also McDonald's fault. At the risk of repeating myself: when Stella was injured, McDonalds' corporate policy required coffee to be held at 180-190 deg F [1]. This is pretty well in line with the range recommended by professional coffee associations like the NCA, who currently recommend that coffee be held and served at around 180-185 deg F (~80-85 deg C) [2]. This temperature range was, and still is, used by nearly every coffee shop, restaurant, and domestic coffee machine. Starbucks regularly serves even hotter coffee. My Mr. Coffee machine holds coffee at around 185 deg F. So does your's. Look it up. And like I said, any good tea shop will serve you a pot of much hotter, nearly boiling water. Well over 200 deg F. So if you really think McDonalds was negligent in serving coffee in compliance with recognized industry standards, then you must think every other coffee shop, tea shop, restaurant, and home coffee machine maker is also potentially guilty of negligence. Is that what you think? Thankfully, the verdict against McDonalds in Stella's case was a pretty isolated result, and personally injury lawyers have moved on to suing over defective lids, rather than excessive temperatures [3]. Notice that in the linked case, Starbucks served 190 deg coffee, hotter than what Stella was injured by, yet they were not sued for the temperature, but rather a lid that came off too easily. > Why would you argue that it is a binary choice between personal responsibility, or complete abrogation of responsibility? That's the choice forced on us by frivolous lawsuits like this. Thankfully, that false choice has been thoroughly ignored, and we can still get appropriately hot coffee from establishments and our own coffee machines. 1 - http://web.archive.org/web/20031223003746/http://www.reedmorganpc.com/wsj_coffee.htm http://web.archive.org/web/20031223003746/http://www.reedmor... 2 - https://www.ncausa.org/About-Coffee/How-to-Brew-Coffee https://www.ncausa.org/About-Coffee/How-to-Brew-Coffee 3 - https://www.eater.com/2017/5/19/15662790/starbucks-hot-coffee-lawsuit-florida-100k https://www.eater.com/2017/5/19/15662790/starbucks-hot-coffe...