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>The burn led to hospitalization. 3rd degree burns over 6% of her body with lesser burns over 16% of her body. (Her labia were fused together.) And required

>The burn led to hospitalization. 3rd degree burns over 6% of her body with lesser burns over 16% of her body. (Her labia were fused together.) And required extensive skin grafts to treat. While in the hospital she lost 20% of her body weight and was left partially disabled for 2 years following the incident and retain not-insignificant scarring. >They had the coffee machine set higher than standard McDonald's temperature It was within normal operating parameters as per the McDonald's manual. There had been 700 prior instances of warning about issues from hot coffee. (And while I'm at it) She was not driving, she was a passenger in a parked car when the incident occurred. She originally only sued for medical costs; McDonald's offered $800. The jury awarded $200,000 and the judge reduced that to $160,000. $2.7 million was awarded by the jury in punitive damages and reduced to $480,000 by the judge, however, there was later a settlement for an unknown amount after McDonald's appealed. Why does everyone remember different? Because McDonald's spent more than a few million dollars on a PR campaign against her, after which she received lifelong massive amounts of hate mail and death threats and was reduced to gags on everything from Seinfeld to Jay Leno to Futurama.

nate_meurer 7y ago
What happened to Stella Liebeck was terrible, but it was no one's fault more than her own. Stella's coffee was served within the temperature range that was, and still is, recommended by professional coffee associations like SCAA and NCA [1]. As of 2019, the NCA recommends that coffee be held and served at around 180-185 deg F (~80-85 deg C), which is likely near the temperature at which Stella was burned. This is a perfectly reasonable service temperature, widely used by coffee shops, restaurants, and home brewing machines to this day. Stella Liebeck took her cup of coffee and squeezed it between her legs in order to fiddle with the lid. The result was tragic, but completely expected. If I spill a fresh cup of Starbucks coffee on my crotch today, I fully expect third-degree burns. So I take a little extra care with it until it has cooled to drinking temperature, which happens pretty quickly. Tea is generally even hotter. Any good tea shop will serve a pot of freshly boiled water, at least twenty degrees hotter than hot coffee. Spilling that on yourself is guaranteed to melt your skin. Great care is warranted. Again, what happened to Stella was terrible. She didn't deserve it, and she didn't deserve the hate she got afterward. But she did something really stupid. I sympathize, because I do stupid stuff all the time, and I have the scars to remind me. We're surrounded by extremely dangerous things that require great care to use properly. It's useful for coffee to be held and served hot, just as it's useful for knives to be sharp and cars to be able to reach highway speeds. There will inevitably be accidents, but making the world completely safe for people who use these things carelessly would mean depriving everyone of their proper use. 1 - https://www.ncausa.org/About-Coffee/How-to-Brew-Coffee https://www.ncausa.org/About-Coffee/How-to-Brew-Coffee
- stordoff 7y ago
  > Tea is generally even hotter. Any good tea shop will serve a pot of freshly boiled water, at least twenty degrees hotter than hot coffee. Depends on the tea. Most of the recommendations I see are below boiling: > white and green teas are best at 70°c. For black and oolong teas use water around 85°c. For herbal infusions use 100°c water, and 90°c for Chamomile. https://www.rareteacompany.com/perfect-cup/how-to-make-the-perfect-cup-of-tea https://www.rareteacompany.com/perfect-cup/how-to-make-the-p... > Once your kettle is boiled with fresh water you need to leave it for a few minutes to cool down. https://www.twinings.co.uk/about-twinings/latest-news-and-articles/how-to-make-tea-perfectly https://www.twinings.co.uk/about-twinings/latest-news-and-ar...
  - nate_meurer 7y ago
    "Depends on the tea" is absolutely right, but that website makes some odd claims. It reads like a content mill. Their claim that black tea should be steeped at 85 deg C is simply wrong. I don't know where they got that. Black teas are universally recognized to require the highest steeping temperatures, to the point that high-altitude brewing is a problem for many folks. The claim that green tea is best steeped at 70 deg C is similarly useless, simply because there are so many kinds of green tea. Really sweet, amino-heavy teas like a good gyokuro are definitely better done at lower temperatures. But most green teas are quite forgiving, and are commonly brewed at near boiling temperatures. Freshly boiled hot water is also often necessary for herbals, especially short-steeping acidic herbals like hibiscus and fruit. Mate is uniformly prepared and served at around 180 deg F in my experience. Don't spill that shit either. I've noticed a trend in recent years for tea retailers to lace their marketing with fancy instructions that treat their teas like autistic children, demanding gentle temperatures and strict timing rules. This started as a uniquely American bit of marketing wank, but it seems to be spreading recently. For a rebuttal with the credibility of an old-fashioned Englishman, here's Ginger Baker in an interview in Forbes a few years back: > One thing that really bothers me in America is the inability of restaurants to make a good cup of tea. The instructions printed on the bag say, "Pour boiling water over the tea." How simple is that? No, they bring you an empty cup with an unopened tea bag beside it – how nice - and a pot of water that may be hot, but boiling it isn’t. So tea you have not. It’s boiling water that brings out tea’s flavor, and perhaps a dash of milk. But the brown liquid you end up with here looks like gnat’s pee, and has nothing to do with a really good cup of tea. Even notwithstanding individual preferences, if you go to any good tea shop you're highly likely to be served a pot of freshly boiled water, which may still be well over 200 deg F by the time you pour it. A hazardous substance to be sure.
robocat 7y ago
> She originally only sued for medical costs; McDonald's offered $800 Plaintiff sues the Defendants in the amount of $125,000 for physical pain, mental pain and anguish, and loss of life’s enjoyment during the pendency of treatment. Liebeck initially approached McDonald’s with a demand of $20,000 to cover her medical bills, future medical expenses, and lost income. McDonald’s countered with an offer of $800. (Gerlin, Andrea. “A Matter of Degree,” The Wall Street Journal, September 1, 1994). As trial approached, Liebeck’s settlement demand increased to approximately $300,000.

nate_meurer 7y ago

What happened to Stella Liebeck was terrible, but it was no one's fault more than her own. Stella's coffee was served within the temperature range that was, and still is, recommended by professional coffee associations like SCAA and NCA [1]. As of 2019, the NCA recommends that coffee be held and served at around 180-185 deg F (~80-85 deg C), which is likely near the temperature at which Stella was burned. This is a perfectly reasonable service temperature, widely used by coffee shops, restaurants, and home brewing machines to this day. Stella Liebeck took her cup of coffee and squeezed it between her legs in order to fiddle with the lid. The result was tragic, but completely expected. If I spill a fresh cup of Starbucks coffee on my crotch today, I fully expect third-degree burns. So I take a little extra care with it until it has cooled to drinking temperature, which happens pretty quickly. Tea is generally even hotter. Any good tea shop will serve a pot of freshly boiled water, at least twenty degrees hotter than hot coffee. Spilling that on yourself is guaranteed to melt your skin. Great care is warranted. Again, what happened to Stella was terrible. She didn't deserve it, and she didn't deserve the hate she got afterward. But she did something really stupid. I sympathize, because I do stupid stuff all the time, and I have the scars to remind me. We're surrounded by extremely dangerous things that require great care to use properly. It's useful for coffee to be held and served hot, just as it's useful for knives to be sharp and cars to be able to reach highway speeds. There will inevitably be accidents, but making the world completely safe for people who use these things carelessly would mean depriving everyone of their proper use. 1 - https://www.ncausa.org/About-Coffee/How-to-Brew-Coffee https://www.ncausa.org/About-Coffee/How-to-Brew-Coffee

stordoff 7y ago
> Tea is generally even hotter. Any good tea shop will serve a pot of freshly boiled water, at least twenty degrees hotter than hot coffee. Depends on the tea. Most of the recommendations I see are below boiling: > white and green teas are best at 70°c. For black and oolong teas use water around 85°c. For herbal infusions use 100°c water, and 90°c for Chamomile. https://www.rareteacompany.com/perfect-cup/how-to-make-the-perfect-cup-of-tea https://www.rareteacompany.com/perfect-cup/how-to-make-the-p... > Once your kettle is boiled with fresh water you need to leave it for a few minutes to cool down. https://www.twinings.co.uk/about-twinings/latest-news-and-articles/how-to-make-tea-perfectly https://www.twinings.co.uk/about-twinings/latest-news-and-ar...
- nate_meurer 7y ago
  "Depends on the tea" is absolutely right, but that website makes some odd claims. It reads like a content mill. Their claim that black tea should be steeped at 85 deg C is simply wrong. I don't know where they got that. Black teas are universally recognized to require the highest steeping temperatures, to the point that high-altitude brewing is a problem for many folks. The claim that green tea is best steeped at 70 deg C is similarly useless, simply because there are so many kinds of green tea. Really sweet, amino-heavy teas like a good gyokuro are definitely better done at lower temperatures. But most green teas are quite forgiving, and are commonly brewed at near boiling temperatures. Freshly boiled hot water is also often necessary for herbals, especially short-steeping acidic herbals like hibiscus and fruit. Mate is uniformly prepared and served at around 180 deg F in my experience. Don't spill that shit either. I've noticed a trend in recent years for tea retailers to lace their marketing with fancy instructions that treat their teas like autistic children, demanding gentle temperatures and strict timing rules. This started as a uniquely American bit of marketing wank, but it seems to be spreading recently. For a rebuttal with the credibility of an old-fashioned Englishman, here's Ginger Baker in an interview in Forbes a few years back: > One thing that really bothers me in America is the inability of restaurants to make a good cup of tea. The instructions printed on the bag say, "Pour boiling water over the tea." How simple is that? No, they bring you an empty cup with an unopened tea bag beside it – how nice - and a pot of water that may be hot, but boiling it isn’t. So tea you have not. It’s boiling water that brings out tea’s flavor, and perhaps a dash of milk. But the brown liquid you end up with here looks like gnat’s pee, and has nothing to do with a really good cup of tea. Even notwithstanding individual preferences, if you go to any good tea shop you're highly likely to be served a pot of freshly boiled water, which may still be well over 200 deg F by the time you pour it. A hazardous substance to be sure.

robocat 7y ago

> She originally only sued for medical costs; McDonald's offered $800 Plaintiff sues the Defendants in the amount of $125,000 for physical pain, mental pain and anguish, and loss of life’s enjoyment during the pendency of treatment. Liebeck initially approached McDonald’s with a demand of $20,000 to cover her medical bills, future medical expenses, and lost income. McDonald’s countered with an offer of $800. (Gerlin, Andrea. “A Matter of Degree,” The Wall Street Journal, September 1, 1994). As trial approached, Liebeck’s settlement demand increased to approximately $300,000.