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I think its more the removal of the compiler from a default installation that has killed programming for kids. If the major OS's still shipped with tools onboa

I think its more the removal of the compiler from a default installation that has killed programming for kids. If the major OS's still shipped with tools onboard (i.e. without requiring an additional install) that enabled development out of the box, the barrier to entry would be lower. As it is however, developer tools are a multi-billion dollar industry, and there is very definitely a desire by all the players in this space to milk it for every penny.

MagicPropmaker 7y ago
Windows ships with PowerShell which is a very capable programming language.
- thwarted 7y ago
  PowerShell is a relatively recent default inclusion in Windows, and it's not marketed or thought of as "You can build your own games with it!" Bookstores used to be packed with things like "The Big Book of Computer Games" and magazines with program listings for interesting programs you'd type in (a task my mother and I shared). A blog/video series about using PowerShell for simple games would be pretty interesting. Windows default file editors aren't that great either. The C64's full screen editor was designed for entering and editing BASIC programs, very visually.
  - MagicPropmaker 7y ago
    I disagree. There are many books on programming in PowerShell and you can call into any .NET library from it, so you can certainly write games.
    - fit2rule 7y ago
      Got some examples?
      - MagicPropmaker 7y ago
        Games https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/mspfe/2012/09/10/how-to-create-video-games-using-powershell/ https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/mspfe/2012/09/10/how-to-... https://github.com/avdaredevil/SnakeMadNess https://github.com/avdaredevil/SnakeMadNess http://www.twentysidedblog.com/powershell-match-3-game/ http://www.twentysidedblog.com/powershell-match-3-game/ Books: https://www.amazon.com/s?k=PowerShell&ref=nb_sb_noss_2 https://www.amazon.com/s?k=PowerShell&ref=nb_sb_noss_2 There are a lot of people programming in Powershell. I probably write a few lines every day.
    - thwarted 7y ago
      I didn't say you couldn't write games using PowerShell. I said there doesn't seem to be books or docs or blogs about using PowerShell for games, or for really anything other than system automation and system utilities. I'm sure it's possible to write Eliza or a pong game in PowerShell. These are the kinds of things that introduced kids to programming, and without an easily accessible, included language with the mindshare that they are appropriate for entertainment purposes, less experienced but curious people will gravitate away from it.
tannhaeuser 7y ago
Home computers didn't ship with compilers either. On an Atari ST you had the option to get a commercial C-Compiler from DRI and Megamax. The DRI compiler suite required you to disc-jockey multiple floppies to compile (in two stages), and then link the final executable, where intermediate object files had to be stored on floppies as well. RAM disks only helped so much on 1024 or 512 KB RAM.
monocasa 7y ago
A web browser has a full compiler/interperter available. JavaScript isn't the best language in the world, but in context, these simple BASICs derived from Dartmouth BASIC were so crappy that Dijkstra said > It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration. and wrote Go-to Considered Harmful talking about BASIC. ie. it's not a high bar we're trying to reach here.
- fit2rule 7y ago
  I think the distinction needs to be made between native development, which is much more performant, with far less dependencies, than web-based development - which requires a great deal of runway before it can be launched. Removing compilers from the base OS install package has been detrimental to application development, and has created a bias towards web-based tools, for the reasons you state.
  - monocasa 7y ago
    Outside of Unix, base install has never included compilers. And the people talking about yesteryear's more introspectable computers aren't talking about Unix workstations. These people are talking about BASIC interpreters, not native development. And there's no dependencies for web based development unless you want them. Just open notepad and save a .html file. Done.
kalleboo 7y ago
When did computers ever come with a compiler in a default installation? And when was that ever a kid's first exposure to programming (as opposed to interpreted BASIC)? Everyone I've talked to who got into programming as a kid (as opposed to through school/a job) was through BASIC/Visual Basic or making web pages and adding JavaScript, or though some kind of game scripting language. For me it was HyperCard/HyperTalk. None of them just sat down with GCC.

MagicPropmaker 7y ago

Windows ships with PowerShell which is a very capable programming language.

thwarted 7y ago
PowerShell is a relatively recent default inclusion in Windows, and it's not marketed or thought of as "You can build your own games with it!" Bookstores used to be packed with things like "The Big Book of Computer Games" and magazines with program listings for interesting programs you'd type in (a task my mother and I shared). A blog/video series about using PowerShell for simple games would be pretty interesting. Windows default file editors aren't that great either. The C64's full screen editor was designed for entering and editing BASIC programs, very visually.
- MagicPropmaker 7y ago
  I disagree. There are many books on programming in PowerShell and you can call into any .NET library from it, so you can certainly write games.
  - fit2rule 7y ago
    Got some examples?
    - MagicPropmaker 7y ago
      Games https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/mspfe/2012/09/10/how-to-create-video-games-using-powershell/ https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/mspfe/2012/09/10/how-to-... https://github.com/avdaredevil/SnakeMadNess https://github.com/avdaredevil/SnakeMadNess http://www.twentysidedblog.com/powershell-match-3-game/ http://www.twentysidedblog.com/powershell-match-3-game/ Books: https://www.amazon.com/s?k=PowerShell&ref=nb_sb_noss_2 https://www.amazon.com/s?k=PowerShell&ref=nb_sb_noss_2 There are a lot of people programming in Powershell. I probably write a few lines every day.
  - thwarted 7y ago
    I didn't say you couldn't write games using PowerShell. I said there doesn't seem to be books or docs or blogs about using PowerShell for games, or for really anything other than system automation and system utilities. I'm sure it's possible to write Eliza or a pong game in PowerShell. These are the kinds of things that introduced kids to programming, and without an easily accessible, included language with the mindshare that they are appropriate for entertainment purposes, less experienced but curious people will gravitate away from it.

tannhaeuser 7y ago

Home computers didn't ship with compilers either. On an Atari ST you had the option to get a commercial C-Compiler from DRI and Megamax. The DRI compiler suite required you to disc-jockey multiple floppies to compile (in two stages), and then link the final executable, where intermediate object files had to be stored on floppies as well. RAM disks only helped so much on 1024 or 512 KB RAM.

monocasa 7y ago

A web browser has a full compiler/interperter available. JavaScript isn't the best language in the world, but in context, these simple BASICs derived from Dartmouth BASIC were so crappy that Dijkstra said > It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration. and wrote Go-to Considered Harmful talking about BASIC. ie. it's not a high bar we're trying to reach here.

fit2rule 7y ago
I think the distinction needs to be made between native development, which is much more performant, with far less dependencies, than web-based development - which requires a great deal of runway before it can be launched. Removing compilers from the base OS install package has been detrimental to application development, and has created a bias towards web-based tools, for the reasons you state.
- monocasa 7y ago
  Outside of Unix, base install has never included compilers. And the people talking about yesteryear's more introspectable computers aren't talking about Unix workstations. These people are talking about BASIC interpreters, not native development. And there's no dependencies for web based development unless you want them. Just open notepad and save a .html file. Done.

kalleboo 7y ago

When did computers ever come with a compiler in a default installation? And when was that ever a kid's first exposure to programming (as opposed to interpreted BASIC)? Everyone I've talked to who got into programming as a kid (as opposed to through school/a job) was through BASIC/Visual Basic or making web pages and adding JavaScript, or though some kind of game scripting language. For me it was HyperCard/HyperTalk. None of them just sat down with GCC.