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> The Nazis and the Anti-Nazi protesters were not of the same order of magnitude of evil in Charlottesville Are you intentionally invoking Godwin's law because

> The Nazis and the Anti-Nazi protesters were not of the same order of magnitude of evil in Charlottesville Are you intentionally invoking Godwin's law because you know your argument is untenable? > PyPy is a thing, and it works just fine, you know I like PyPy. It's not perfect, but it's pretty good. Maybe you should recommend that in the first place next time. > But it's IMPOSSIBLE to implement a bash JIT compiler [...] to fork "bc" Never say never. Before V8, everyone thought JavaScript had to be as slow as Python too. Now we have PyPy and LuaJIT, which I would've thought were impossible. > And no, integrating "bc" into bash isn't a valid solution, or they would have done it ages ago You seem really hung up on "bc". You do realize that "echo" wasn't always a builtin, and that they added it for performance reasons, right? If anyone cared enough, they could add "bc" as a builtin. Hell, the expression evaluator for integers is well on it's way. You're right that probably nobody cares enough to build in "bc", but I wouldn't be surprised to see a triple paren or square bracket math interpreter with floating point support in bash someday. Heh, maybe they'll even add complex numbers. And a bash JIT is exactly the kind of thing some grad student would do for the absurdity of it all.

DonHopkins 7y ago
Even Michael Godwin says there are times when it's acceptable to compare shitheads to Nazis. https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2018/06/19/27874178/godwins-law-suspended-by-godwin https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2018/06/19/27874178/godwins... https://twitter.com/sfmnemonic/status/896884949634232320 https://twitter.com/sfmnemonic/status/896884949634232320 >Maybe you should recommend that in the first place next time. For the third or so time, Python is not the point. I'm not recommending any particular language (or I would have mentioned Lua and Lisp), I'm dis-recommending bash, and merely using Python and JavaScript as widely known and well understood counter-examples. And I say impossible because of the insurmountable social resistance you would encounter from the bash developers who were not insane, if you actually tried to integrate "bc" into bash. You admit floating point math in bash would be a good idea, and you seem to think integrating in a way that's compatible with bc's and bash's wonderful mish-mash syntax (the same way bash integrated "echo"), (((or worse yet adding even more mish-mash syntax to bash))), instead of simply building floating point and a library with sin and cos into the language itself is a good idea, so tell me why it hasn't already happened in all these years? >And a bash JIT is exactly the kind of thing some grad student would do for the absurdity of it all. That was exactly my point in mentioning the Synthesis Kernel. As brilliant as it was, who's actually running it now? Just because a genius grad student comes up with something brilliant and groundbreaking and beautiful like that, doesn't mean it's practical in the real world. Seriously, you should read about it -- it's a classic paper from 1988 Usenix: https://www.usenix.org/legacy/publications/compsystems/1988/win_pu.pdf https://www.usenix.org/legacy/publications/compsystems/1988/... But PyPy and V8 are here today, run everywhere, behave identically across all platforms including the most popular one Windows, work just great, are well supported and going places fast, and they're both perfectly capable of calling the mul and cos instruction directly and even drawing pie charts. While you're farting bubbles in the bathtub about integrating "bc" into bash, and haven't even proposed how you'll integrate the canvas api yet.
- civility 7y ago
  > Even Michael Godwin says there are times when it's acceptable to compare shitheads to Nazis I wonder if we were in our early 20s during Nazi Germany if either of us would have the wherewithal to reject being a Nazi. I suspect we're all shitheads depending on the context. > I'm dis-recommnending bash. Yeah, I got that. I just thought it was absurd for you to only aim for a few orders of magnitude speed improvement when you could've easily gotten several more by arguing for something faster than Python. > You admit floating point math in bash would be a good idea, and you seem to think [...] You're doing that thing again where you try to represent my argument for me. This time instead of telling me what I might say, you're telling me what I think. You're wrong again, and it's still a poor argument strategy. I'm not defending or advocating bash. I'm certainly not recommending any improvements to it - I only said they were possible. I am however calling you out for recommending Python in any case where performance matters.
  - DonHopkins 7y ago
    Speak for yourself, but the exterminating Jews thing would have turned me off even as a small child. Please don't represent my tolerance for Nazis for me, and I won't represent your arguments for you. Once again: If performance matters, then use PyPy or V8 or SpiderMonkey or ChakraCore or JavaScriptCore or Carakan or Nashorn of course. It doesn't invalidate my argument that I used the name of the language Python instead of listing out every possible interpreter or VM that runs Python scripts, or every JavaScript VM, or every C++ compiler. I've already said several times that Python is just an example. Did you not understand that part? The hundreds of instructions difference between multiplying with CPython and PyPy still pales in comparison to the millions of instructions required to fork "bc". And with bash you're still stuck with that terrible mish-mash syntax and converting back and forth between text and binary floating point numbers.
    - civility 7y ago
      > Speak for yourself, but the exterminating Jews thing would have turned me off even as a small child. Well, it's either nature or nurture that makes the difference between them and us. If it's nature, then you're basically arguing they're bad because of some DNA difference (kind of Nazi-ish if you ask me), and if it's nurture, you should be willing do admit you might do horrible things like the other people in that context. I mean, we're either all the same or we have discriminating differences - pick your poison. Conveniently, we can pretend to have the moral highground because we can't actually perform the experiment. > I've already said several times that Python is just an example. Yeah, but you should pick better examples :-) Now you're locking your heals and wiggling around trying to pretend you meant PyPy. > The hundreds of instructions difference between multiplying with CPython and PyPy still pales in comparison to the millions of instructions required to fork "bc" So 4 orders of magnitude is worth it, but 2 more don't matter to you. Someone else might take a different position either way. > And with bash you're still stuck with that terrible mish-mash syntax and converting back and forth between text and binary floating point numbers. Agreed. Python has plenty of ugly flaws though too.

DonHopkins 7y ago

Even Michael Godwin says there are times when it's acceptable to compare shitheads to Nazis. https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2018/06/19/27874178/godwins-law-suspended-by-godwin https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2018/06/19/27874178/godwins... https://twitter.com/sfmnemonic/status/896884949634232320 https://twitter.com/sfmnemonic/status/896884949634232320 >Maybe you should recommend that in the first place next time. For the third or so time, Python is not the point. I'm not recommending any particular language (or I would have mentioned Lua and Lisp), I'm dis-recommending bash, and merely using Python and JavaScript as widely known and well understood counter-examples. And I say impossible because of the insurmountable social resistance you would encounter from the bash developers who were not insane, if you actually tried to integrate "bc" into bash. You admit floating point math in bash would be a good idea, and you seem to think integrating in a way that's compatible with bc's and bash's wonderful mish-mash syntax (the same way bash integrated "echo"), (((or worse yet adding even more mish-mash syntax to bash))), instead of simply building floating point and a library with sin and cos into the language itself is a good idea, so tell me why it hasn't already happened in all these years? >And a bash JIT is exactly the kind of thing some grad student would do for the absurdity of it all. That was exactly my point in mentioning the Synthesis Kernel. As brilliant as it was, who's actually running it now? Just because a genius grad student comes up with something brilliant and groundbreaking and beautiful like that, doesn't mean it's practical in the real world. Seriously, you should read about it -- it's a classic paper from 1988 Usenix: https://www.usenix.org/legacy/publications/compsystems/1988/win_pu.pdf https://www.usenix.org/legacy/publications/compsystems/1988/... But PyPy and V8 are here today, run everywhere, behave identically across all platforms including the most popular one Windows, work just great, are well supported and going places fast, and they're both perfectly capable of calling the mul and cos instruction directly and even drawing pie charts. While you're farting bubbles in the bathtub about integrating "bc" into bash, and haven't even proposed how you'll integrate the canvas api yet.

civility 7y ago
> Even Michael Godwin says there are times when it's acceptable to compare shitheads to Nazis I wonder if we were in our early 20s during Nazi Germany if either of us would have the wherewithal to reject being a Nazi. I suspect we're all shitheads depending on the context. > I'm dis-recommnending bash. Yeah, I got that. I just thought it was absurd for you to only aim for a few orders of magnitude speed improvement when you could've easily gotten several more by arguing for something faster than Python. > You admit floating point math in bash would be a good idea, and you seem to think [...] You're doing that thing again where you try to represent my argument for me. This time instead of telling me what I might say, you're telling me what I think. You're wrong again, and it's still a poor argument strategy. I'm not defending or advocating bash. I'm certainly not recommending any improvements to it - I only said they were possible. I am however calling you out for recommending Python in any case where performance matters.
- DonHopkins 7y ago
  Speak for yourself, but the exterminating Jews thing would have turned me off even as a small child. Please don't represent my tolerance for Nazis for me, and I won't represent your arguments for you. Once again: If performance matters, then use PyPy or V8 or SpiderMonkey or ChakraCore or JavaScriptCore or Carakan or Nashorn of course. It doesn't invalidate my argument that I used the name of the language Python instead of listing out every possible interpreter or VM that runs Python scripts, or every JavaScript VM, or every C++ compiler. I've already said several times that Python is just an example. Did you not understand that part? The hundreds of instructions difference between multiplying with CPython and PyPy still pales in comparison to the millions of instructions required to fork "bc". And with bash you're still stuck with that terrible mish-mash syntax and converting back and forth between text and binary floating point numbers.
  - civility 7y ago
    > Speak for yourself, but the exterminating Jews thing would have turned me off even as a small child. Well, it's either nature or nurture that makes the difference between them and us. If it's nature, then you're basically arguing they're bad because of some DNA difference (kind of Nazi-ish if you ask me), and if it's nurture, you should be willing do admit you might do horrible things like the other people in that context. I mean, we're either all the same or we have discriminating differences - pick your poison. Conveniently, we can pretend to have the moral highground because we can't actually perform the experiment. > I've already said several times that Python is just an example. Yeah, but you should pick better examples :-) Now you're locking your heals and wiggling around trying to pretend you meant PyPy. > The hundreds of instructions difference between multiplying with CPython and PyPy still pales in comparison to the millions of instructions required to fork "bc" So 4 orders of magnitude is worth it, but 2 more don't matter to you. Someone else might take a different position either way. > And with bash you're still stuck with that terrible mish-mash syntax and converting back and forth between text and binary floating point numbers. Agreed. Python has plenty of ugly flaws though too.