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Pulling or cutting the pensions of retired public service workers (many of whom who risked their lives to protect the public) would, beyond the ethical question
by gfodor 7y ago
Pulling or cutting the pensions of retired public service workers (many of whom who risked their lives to protect the public) would, beyond the ethical questions, eliminate the credibility of the city's promises to those who sign up for such jobs and hence would likely greatly reduce the quantity and quality of recruits.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 7y agoThe current proposed solution is just to cut back benefits on new job offers - though obviously if they cut back too much no one decent will want to work there.
- Phlarp 7y agoBecause there is some glut of smart qualified people gunning for those public sector jobs?
- vkou 7y agoI've met plenty of idiots who worked in well-paid private sector jobs, and plenty of smart people who worked in government jobs.
- czbond 7y agoNot true - if it were, every minimum wage, overworked job would go unfilled.
- closeparen 7y agoMinimum wage overworked jobs have a hard time attracting people with alternatives.
- outside1234 7y agoJust pay them market rate and give them 401ks like everyone else - what am I missing? Why do we keep doing this to ourselves with government jobs?
- hn_throwaway_99 7y ago> Why do we keep doing this to ourselves with government jobs? Because the politician who agrees to the largess will be long gone before the bill comes due. Not sure how to fix this, but generally I think some sort of additional checks and balances should be required whenever government takes on huge future liabilities.
- lotsofpulp 7y agoEasy to fix, ban long term compensation agreements. If a union wants an annuity, they can go buy it from an insurance company. No need to negotiate anything other than cash salaries. Unfortunately, not enough taxpayers vote to offset the government workers voting themselves benefits as a bloc.
- malandrew 7y agoAnd sadly every time we grow the size of government by assigning more responsibilities to government, the larger that voting bloc grows. In states favoring big government, this can only end badly. Although they can always raise taxes to address shortfalls, this has limits as it eventually drives those paying the most taxes to low-tax states.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- chrisco255 7y agoA lot of states do this. Florida Retirement System for public employees is mostly paid for through managed assets.
- lostphilosopher 7y agoDoing this requires spending money now. You can get away with funding pensions with IOUs much longer than you can do it with a salary or 401k. Further the benefits of solving this kick in long after you are out of office, assuming no one breaks your system before then.
- 7y ago
- lotsofpulp 7y agoI would think quality recruits are already avoiding Illinois in general due to the future share of tax revenues that will need to be diverted to pay for prior years' labor, meaning less resources for today and the future's quality of life.
- moorhosj 7y agoOn the flip side, Chicago pays their teachers, police and fire fighters pretty good annual salaries. I imagine that outweighs their analysis of future benefits as a share of tax revenue.
- scarface74 7y agoThe whole idea of policemen “risking their lives” is not statistically accurate. Only 144 policemen died in the line of duty in the entire United States last year (https://www.npr.org/2018/12/27/680410169/more-police-officers-died-from-gunfire-than-traffic-incidents-in-2018-report-say https://www.npr.org/2018/12/27/680410169/more-police-officer...) The Chicago police department isn’t exactly what most people would call “quality”.
- aswanson 7y agoIt's not even in the top 10 most dangerous occupations: https://www.ajc.com/news/world/these-are-the-deadliest-jobs-america-study-says/pKusOItm8JG6m0P4SCrXuN/ https://www.ajc.com/news/world/these-are-the-deadliest-jobs-...
- throwawaymath 7y agoIt strikes me as a bit disingenuous to say it's not even in the top 10 when it's number 18, according to that list. At that point we're talking about a difference of degree, not category. If anything your citation supports the idea that police officers endanger their lives.
- scarface74 7y agoIt would be disingenuous if he said “it wasn’t in the top 10” when it was #11. #18 is nowhere near the top 10. Even a garbage collector is three times more likely to die on the job than a police officer. https://qz.com/410585/garbage-collectors-are-more-likely-to-die-on-the-job-than-police-patrol-officers/ https://qz.com/410585/garbage-collectors-are-more-likely-to-...
- throwawaymath 7y ago18 is quite close to 10, in an absolute sense. The context of that citation is a claim that it's statistically inaccurate to say police officers risk their lives. That claim is demonstrably not borne out by statistics. Out of the universe of available professional work, being a police officer is #18 in risk. It's a rather small consolation that they're not eight jobs higher up the chain in terms of risk, considering there is essentially no chance of e.g. my monitor killing me as I sit at my desk. A valid takeaway from the cited list is that being a police officer isn't literally the most dangerous thing you can do for work. An invalid takeaway is that being a police officer isn't dangerous.
- prepend 7y agoI don’t think the fix is removing pensions from old people, but rather drastically reforming pensions for future retirees entering the workforce now. Cutting pensions now would be like cutting someone’s salary and would likely lead to skilled people quitting.
- RhodesianHunter 7y agoSo cut compensation for current already underpaid employees to shore up retirement for the people who voted for the politicians who caused this? That doesn't taste right to me.
- patrick5415 7y agoThe aarp is a powerful propaganda machine.
- prepend 7y agoI don’t think reducing compensation for future employees through reduced pensions shores up retirement for current employees or pensioners. For that you have to raise taxes a lot, I think. My suggestion was to prevent even worse problems in the future. I think the current folks are hosed because raising taxes on the middle and working class along with rich people is unpopular so I don’t think elected officials will want to do that. So they will probably chug along and then go bankrupt, hosing pensioners.
- wbl 7y agoWhat about unvested obligations for current workers like 3٪ of highest pay going to 2٪ for all pay after now?
- jonathankoren 7y agoYou can’t cut the pension for the retired, or the soon to be retired. Instead you try buy outs and phase them out. New workers get 401ks. Old workers get pensions. Middle aged workers get a choice. 30 years later, the pension holders are dead, or your company is. Either way, it’s no longer a problem.
- dev_dull 7y agoThey were promised something by the city that couldn’t be delivered to them. There’s no other way out. Is there a difference in Silicon Valley workers being promised future stock if they just forgo their paycheck for a little while longer? The Difference of courses that taxpayers don’t foot the difference.
- moorhosj 7y agoSilicon Valley workers also don’t work for the taxpayers, so that would be another difference. Who would pay public employees if not taxpayers?
- rocqua 7y agoDifferences between silicon valley stock and city pensions are 1) stock options are a known volatile thing rather than a government backed guarantee. 2) Missed Stock options are much easier to compensate for financially than a pension. If you miss stock options, you are still part of the wage pool. If you miss a pension that is much harder. After all, the point of a pension is to take care of people who are 'worn out'. Hence, there is much less of a fall-back system for missed pensions.
- JumpCrisscross 7y ago> Pulling or cutting the pensions of retired public service workers (many of whom who risked their lives to protect the public) would, beyond the ethical questions, eliminate the credibility of the city's promises Well, yes. It would be a default. But more money has been spent than is there and there are only three pools to draw from: taxpayers, services and creditors. (Creditors include both pensioners and bond holders.) At this point, multiple pools have to be hosed. It’s just a matter of when and to what degree, with the hosing being less extreme the earlier it’s dealt with. In all likelihood, the city will go bankrupt and have creditors cut services in federal bankruptcy proceedings, thereby imperilling the city’s long-term tax base. State, being unable to go bankrupt, will probably hose creditors more.