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> green Well, increased water consumption has a lot of ecological problems as well. Plus most of us westerners would probably balk at using cold water, so we'd

> green Well, increased water consumption has a lot of ecological problems as well. Plus most of us westerners would probably balk at using cold water, so we'd waste a lot of energy heating it up too.

pksadiq 7y ago
> Well, increased water consumption has a lot of ecological problems as well. Well, using paper costs more water than using water itself. Also, the ecological problems of using paper is far worse than using water alone[0][1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_paper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_paper [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilet_paper#Environmental_considerations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilet_paper#Environmental_con...
- icebraining 7y ago
  Absolutely, I wouldn't call TP "green" either.
- fulafel 7y ago
  Water has a really high heat capacity, meaning that it takes a lot of energy to heat. Intuitively, how much water do you think the toilet paper of one bathroom visit would heat, if usef as fuel? (Answer: much less than what you would use to replace TP)
  - lostapathy 7y ago
    How much energy is used to make TP and transport it to your local store?
    - fulafel 7y ago
      Sure, there's that. Otoh the water will alo have a big energy footprint before heating in the avg municipal water service case. But these things don't really change the order of magnitude energy difference that exists in the setup. I got curious and did a napkin calculation. A sheet of TP weights 1.5 grams and you might generously use 10 sheets per visit. Assuming fuel properties of wood, that's 250 kJ of heat energy when burned. That's enough to heat only 1.5 kg of 10C mains water to body temperature.
      - lostapathy 7y ago
        There’s a lot of water and energy used turning trees into paper as well that this neglects. Also just thinking about how much energy is in the TP doesn’t account for shipping it around at all. I have no idea what the energy balance is, i just think this thread had vastly oversimplified. Even the water volume may or may not be an issue. If you live somewhere that water is precious it’s a much different concern than if your location uses surface water that just ends up back in the same river downstream after a trip through your plumbing, for example.
ubercow13 7y ago
It doesn't take much water
jsjohnst 7y ago
My bidet uses less water than it uses to flush, which in turn is less water than was used in creating the paper. If you need it heated, it doesn’t take a lot of energy to heat that small amount of water (as it doesn’t need to heat continuously, at most just when you sit down).
anoncake 7y ago
Water consumption is not an ecological problem everywhere.

pksadiq 7y ago

> Well, increased water consumption has a lot of ecological problems as well. Well, using paper costs more water than using water itself. Also, the ecological problems of using paper is far worse than using water alone[0][1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_paper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_paper [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilet_paper#Environmental_considerations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilet_paper#Environmental_con...

icebraining 7y ago
Absolutely, I wouldn't call TP "green" either.
fulafel 7y ago
Water has a really high heat capacity, meaning that it takes a lot of energy to heat. Intuitively, how much water do you think the toilet paper of one bathroom visit would heat, if usef as fuel? (Answer: much less than what you would use to replace TP)
- lostapathy 7y ago
  How much energy is used to make TP and transport it to your local store?
  - fulafel 7y ago
    Sure, there's that. Otoh the water will alo have a big energy footprint before heating in the avg municipal water service case. But these things don't really change the order of magnitude energy difference that exists in the setup. I got curious and did a napkin calculation. A sheet of TP weights 1.5 grams and you might generously use 10 sheets per visit. Assuming fuel properties of wood, that's 250 kJ of heat energy when burned. That's enough to heat only 1.5 kg of 10C mains water to body temperature.
    - lostapathy 7y ago
      There’s a lot of water and energy used turning trees into paper as well that this neglects. Also just thinking about how much energy is in the TP doesn’t account for shipping it around at all. I have no idea what the energy balance is, i just think this thread had vastly oversimplified. Even the water volume may or may not be an issue. If you live somewhere that water is precious it’s a much different concern than if your location uses surface water that just ends up back in the same river downstream after a trip through your plumbing, for example.

ubercow13 7y ago

It doesn't take much water

jsjohnst 7y ago

My bidet uses less water than it uses to flush, which in turn is less water than was used in creating the paper. If you need it heated, it doesn’t take a lot of energy to heat that small amount of water (as it doesn’t need to heat continuously, at most just when you sit down).

anoncake 7y ago

Water consumption is not an ecological problem everywhere.