5 ms·

The New York subway-map wars, continued

61 points by J3L2404 16y ago

siculars 16y ago
Great breakdown of an argument that has going back and forth for years here in NYC. In a similar vein, anybody who has some extra time and interest should take a look at http://nycbigapps.com/ http://nycbigapps.com/. The deadline has been extended two weeks further into late January. There is a Meetup this morning if you happen to be in the neighborhood, http://www.meetup.com/NYCBIGAPPS/calendar/15493668/?a=cr1p_grp&rv=cr1p http://www.meetup.com/NYCBIGAPPS/calendar/15493668/?a=cr1p_g....
trafficlight 16y ago
I hate websites that don't let you click on the image for a larger version. Especially when the article is about something visual.
ljegou 16y ago
Thanks for this very interesting report of the conference. The positions and arguments are well and shortly exposed. The boundary between diagram and geographical map is in question with subway "maps", and the graphic design is still a challenge. I'm glad to see that the subject of map design is alive and expanding with new media. However, i'd like to see more references to semiology and perception psychology :-)
klbarry 16y ago
The maps are always fine on subways and very useful. The maps on buses, however, are non-existent or for the wrong routes. In addition, there's very rarely an announcement for stops. I would use them much more if this were fixed, as it's so much mental energy to always worry about my stop.
- jim_h 16y ago
  While the maps might be bad, they need to update the routes too. Some routes are horrible and there are stops on every other block. In some areas it can take 6-8 minutes to get through 1 lane streets to go 2 blocks.
cageface 16y ago
This line cracks me up: Chances are, though, that if you're giving it that much thought, you're the kind of person who generally assumes that the good guys lost.
barrkel 16y ago
From a tourist's perspective, the problem with the NY subway system (compared with other subway systems) is that multiple stations have the same name, but may be in very different locations. Usually it's on the same street, but not always; e.g. Fulton St, in both Brooklyn and Manhattan. As to the map itself, the current one is far too crowded in spots because it hews too closely to physical geography, leading to difficulty making out the association between labels, lines and stations until one is familiar with it.
willyt 16y ago
Most subway maps in Europe are diagrams because the urban fabric of the city evolved in a chaotic patchwork fashion; you can't easily explain London on a diagram. The urban fabric of New York is a grid. New York developed on top of a diagram. This is such a crucial part of how you understand the city that it doesn't make sense to me that you wouldn't acknowledge this in a diagram which is explaining a system which is laid out to serve another diagram: the city grid. One of the fundamental principals of modernism is that form follows function; the second guys map is more functional.
- jamesbritt 16y ago
  That's only partly true. The early city was the standard sprawl-out-from-farms kind of thing. Later on, Manhattan was planned pretty well. But the outer boroughs are still a mix of grids and patchwork.
blahedo 16y ago
I can't believe that an article about the contentiousness between different design styles doesn't actually have clear pictures of the designs being discussed! Here's a few I've been able to track down: - A 1966 map, in the style Vignelli replaced: http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/maps/system_1966_a.gif http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/maps/system_19... - Views of the 1972 map: http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/maps/system_1972.jpg http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/maps/system_19... http://subway.com.ru/maps/1972.htm http://subway.com.ru/maps/1972.htm http://www.visualcomplexity.com/vc/project_details.cfm?index=266&id=266&domain http://www.visualcomplexity.com/vc/project_details.cfm?index... - The 1979 map: http://www.imageexchange.com/mvx10/engine.cgi?cid=Z4uJrwOtIsa9zDeFgq10KpTKpL&store=nytm&page=default&basecat=maprepro&return=sku50&body=sku10&sku=18181 http://www.imageexchange.com/mvx10/engine.cgi?cid=Z4uJrwOtIs... http://gothamist.com/attachments/nyc_daveh/Fig.-3---79-orig.jpg http://gothamist.com/attachments/nyc_daveh/Fig.-3---79-orig.... - A 2008 map, an update of the 1972 Vignelli: http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/04/30/nyregion/Vignelli-Subway_FINAL.jpg http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/04/30/nyregion/Vign... - A current 2010 map in the 1979 Tauranac/Hertz style: http://mta.info/maps/subway_web_full_map_Jun10.pdf http://mta.info/maps/subway_web_full_map_Jun10.pdf And finally, an interview with Michael Hertz about the development of the 1979 map: http://gothamist.com/2007/08/03/michael_hertz_d.php http://gothamist.com/2007/08/03/michael_hertz_d.php EDIT: and a page that contains both the current map (in Tauranac/Hertz style) and the KickMap referred to in the article: http://www.kickmap.com/pages/7_wholemap_comparison.html http://www.kickmap.com/pages/7_wholemap_comparison.html

61 points by J3L2404 16y ago

Great breakdown of an argument that has going back and forth for years here in NYC. In a similar vein, anybody who has some extra time and interest should take a look at http://nycbigapps.com/ http://nycbigapps.com/. The deadline has been extended two weeks further into late January. There is a Meetup this morning if you happen to be in the neighborhood, http://www.meetup.com/NYCBIGAPPS/calendar/15493668/?a=cr1p_grp&rv=cr1p http://www.meetup.com/NYCBIGAPPS/calendar/15493668/?a=cr1p_g....

trafficlight 16y ago

I hate websites that don't let you click on the image for a larger version. Especially when the article is about something visual.

ljegou 16y ago

Thanks for this very interesting report of the conference. The positions and arguments are well and shortly exposed. The boundary between diagram and geographical map is in question with subway "maps", and the graphic design is still a challenge. I'm glad to see that the subject of map design is alive and expanding with new media. However, i'd like to see more references to semiology and perception psychology :-)

klbarry 16y ago

The maps are always fine on subways and very useful. The maps on buses, however, are non-existent or for the wrong routes. In addition, there's very rarely an announcement for stops. I would use them much more if this were fixed, as it's so much mental energy to always worry about my stop.

jim_h 16y ago
While the maps might be bad, they need to update the routes too. Some routes are horrible and there are stops on every other block. In some areas it can take 6-8 minutes to get through 1 lane streets to go 2 blocks.

cageface 16y ago

This line cracks me up: Chances are, though, that if you're giving it that much thought, you're the kind of person who generally assumes that the good guys lost.

barrkel 16y ago

From a tourist's perspective, the problem with the NY subway system (compared with other subway systems) is that multiple stations have the same name, but may be in very different locations. Usually it's on the same street, but not always; e.g. Fulton St, in both Brooklyn and Manhattan. As to the map itself, the current one is far too crowded in spots because it hews too closely to physical geography, leading to difficulty making out the association between labels, lines and stations until one is familiar with it.

willyt 16y ago

Most subway maps in Europe are diagrams because the urban fabric of the city evolved in a chaotic patchwork fashion; you can't easily explain London on a diagram. The urban fabric of New York is a grid. New York developed on top of a diagram. This is such a crucial part of how you understand the city that it doesn't make sense to me that you wouldn't acknowledge this in a diagram which is explaining a system which is laid out to serve another diagram: the city grid. One of the fundamental principals of modernism is that form follows function; the second guys map is more functional.

jamesbritt 16y ago
That's only partly true. The early city was the standard sprawl-out-from-farms kind of thing. Later on, Manhattan was planned pretty well. But the outer boroughs are still a mix of grids and patchwork.

blahedo 16y ago

I can't believe that an article about the contentiousness between different design styles doesn't actually have clear pictures of the designs being discussed! Here's a few I've been able to track down: - A 1966 map, in the style Vignelli replaced: http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/maps/system_1966_a.gif http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/maps/system_19... - Views of the 1972 map: http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/maps/system_1972.jpg http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/maps/system_19... http://subway.com.ru/maps/1972.htm http://subway.com.ru/maps/1972.htm http://www.visualcomplexity.com/vc/project_details.cfm?index=266&id=266&domain http://www.visualcomplexity.com/vc/project_details.cfm?index... - The 1979 map: http://www.imageexchange.com/mvx10/engine.cgi?cid=Z4uJrwOtIsa9zDeFgq10KpTKpL&store=nytm&page=default&basecat=maprepro&return=sku50&body=sku10&sku=18181 http://www.imageexchange.com/mvx10/engine.cgi?cid=Z4uJrwOtIs... http://gothamist.com/attachments/nyc_daveh/Fig.-3---79-orig.jpg http://gothamist.com/attachments/nyc_daveh/Fig.-3---79-orig.... - A 2008 map, an update of the 1972 Vignelli: http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/04/30/nyregion/Vignelli-Subway_FINAL.jpg http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/04/30/nyregion/Vign... - A current 2010 map in the 1979 Tauranac/Hertz style: http://mta.info/maps/subway_web_full_map_Jun10.pdf http://mta.info/maps/subway_web_full_map_Jun10.pdf And finally, an interview with Michael Hertz about the development of the 1979 map: http://gothamist.com/2007/08/03/michael_hertz_d.php http://gothamist.com/2007/08/03/michael_hertz_d.php EDIT: and a page that contains both the current map (in Tauranac/Hertz style) and the KickMap referred to in the article: http://www.kickmap.com/pages/7_wholemap_comparison.html http://www.kickmap.com/pages/7_wholemap_comparison.html