4 ms·

We are all standing on the traditional, ancestral, and unceded territory of some {mostly unidentified} people.

by eruci 7y ago

Mirioron 7y ago
I'm not sure that this is true in some parts of Europe. Some of the inhabitants of those places are descended from the people that first inhabited it when the ice sheets pulled back.
- opportune 7y ago
  Which places? I would imagine this might be true of e.g. basque people but even in cases where you can draw a clear cultural/linguistic lineage, that doesn't mean that population has actually remained genetically distinct / free from admixture in that time. Which isn't a bad thing, but I think it makes the claim to direct lineage not really true. The only example I can think of that might fit the bill are the Sami. But I'm not an expert on Sami genetics or history. There's also the issue where you know people in an area may have been living a certain way of life for tens of thousands of years, but without ancient dna, how do you recognize an invading culture that left similar archaeological artifacts (like evidence of reindeer herding) but was genetically/linguistically distinct?
  - quotemstr 7y ago
    Sardinia too, at least in the highlands. The Basques and the Sardinians are very closely related: the PIE-speaker conquest basically never touched them. (~10% Steppe ancestry, with ~0% in some inland villages.) Unlike Basque, though, the neolithic Sardinian language didn't survive --- except in a few place names.
    - opportune 7y ago
      Interesting, I would have thought that the Sardinians would have more mixed ancestry after the Carthaginians/Romans interacted with them. I was aware that they had an ancient culture but not that it was non-PIE
  - ardit33 7y ago
    Sardinians, Basque (perhaps), Albanian and Greeks Albanian are a mix or Yammaya, Corded Ware cultures, and the hypothetical Pellasgian people/culture Greeks are in the same spot. They are called paleo-ballkanik population for a reason. (Fun fact, 23andme has hard time distinguishing the people genetically between Albanians and Greeks and are lumped in the same spot) Some of the remains that were found and dated to 5800bc, have genetic markers similar to today’s inhabitants/Albanians. Which means there was intermingling/mixing of the Indo-European commers with the original cultures who are supposed to have had darker tone skin and blue eyes There are antic accounts of an earlier culture in the are called Pellasgians, and there are some city names that still have survived to this day (eg Larissa in Greece, and Lezha in Albanian). This is all pre 1500b.c. and is still hypothetical as archeological findings have not found populations that were genetically different up to 5,800b.c As for the actual culture and language, that’s a different story. There are many cases where local people adopt a language or culture of a conquering class, (most Latin speaking countries), or vice versa (Bulgarians) But from genetics alone, Sardinians seem to be the European population closest to the earliest farmers

We are all standing on the traditional, ancestral, and unceded territory of some {mostly unidentified} people.

by eruci 7y ago

We are all standing on the traditional, ancestral, and unceded territory of some {mostly unidentified} people.

I'm not sure that this is true in some parts of Europe. Some of the inhabitants of those places are descended from the people that first inhabited it when the ice sheets pulled back.

opportune 7y ago
Which places? I would imagine this might be true of e.g. basque people but even in cases where you can draw a clear cultural/linguistic lineage, that doesn't mean that population has actually remained genetically distinct / free from admixture in that time. Which isn't a bad thing, but I think it makes the claim to direct lineage not really true. The only example I can think of that might fit the bill are the Sami. But I'm not an expert on Sami genetics or history. There's also the issue where you know people in an area may have been living a certain way of life for tens of thousands of years, but without ancient dna, how do you recognize an invading culture that left similar archaeological artifacts (like evidence of reindeer herding) but was genetically/linguistically distinct?
- quotemstr 7y ago
  Sardinia too, at least in the highlands. The Basques and the Sardinians are very closely related: the PIE-speaker conquest basically never touched them. (~10% Steppe ancestry, with ~0% in some inland villages.) Unlike Basque, though, the neolithic Sardinian language didn't survive --- except in a few place names.
  - opportune 7y ago
    Interesting, I would have thought that the Sardinians would have more mixed ancestry after the Carthaginians/Romans interacted with them. I was aware that they had an ancient culture but not that it was non-PIE
- ardit33 7y ago
  Sardinians, Basque (perhaps), Albanian and Greeks Albanian are a mix or Yammaya, Corded Ware cultures, and the hypothetical Pellasgian people/culture Greeks are in the same spot. They are called paleo-ballkanik population for a reason. (Fun fact, 23andme has hard time distinguishing the people genetically between Albanians and Greeks and are lumped in the same spot) Some of the remains that were found and dated to 5800bc, have genetic markers similar to today’s inhabitants/Albanians. Which means there was intermingling/mixing of the Indo-European commers with the original cultures who are supposed to have had darker tone skin and blue eyes There are antic accounts of an earlier culture in the are called Pellasgians, and there are some city names that still have survived to this day (eg Larissa in Greece, and Lezha in Albanian). This is all pre 1500b.c. and is still hypothetical as archeological findings have not found populations that were genetically different up to 5,800b.c As for the actual culture and language, that’s a different story. There are many cases where local people adopt a language or culture of a conquering class, (most Latin speaking countries), or vice versa (Bulgarians) But from genetics alone, Sardinians seem to be the European population closest to the earliest farmers