5 ms·

Part of the reason white-collar salaries are so high (along with demand) is that a lot of jobs actually aren't that interesting to do. The stereotypical office

Part of the reason white-collar salaries are so high (along with demand) is that a lot of jobs actually aren't that interesting to do. The stereotypical office job is "get on a train for 1-2 hours a day, then sit in front of a screen for 8 hours a day in a boring office with fluorescent lighting, five times a week, forever". Not everyone works at a company that actually matters so they're ultimately just pushing bits around. There are definitely other monotonous jobs (checkout staff is the obvious canonical example), but then there's interesting stuff like working for emergency services, mechanic, personal trainer, etc, all YMMV of course.

lotsofpulp 7y ago
I expect white collar pay to drop relative to blue collar pay in the future, it’s probably even happening now. Everyone knows the toll physical labor takes on your body, plus much of white collar work isn’t that hard so there’s a lot of supply of labor that are able to do it.
- mantas 7y ago
  It's already happening in some places. E.g. here in eastern europe. After USSR fell, everybody wanted to go to university. Because during soviet times you'd get assignment to a cushy job for life. Yet people missed that it's over and just having a degree from random university won't land you a job. Thus we have a shit ton of not-so-talented poorly motivated people with a degree. And a lack of tradesmen. End result is that a professional (show up on time, not drunk, do job up to specs) tradesman easily makes 2x or 3x salary of average citizen with university degree. Let alone it's hard to land a job in one's specialty because the market is overcrowded. Thankfully the trend is slowly reversing. Since the '08 crash tradeschools enroll more and more people. There's still a massive gap to be filled.
  - badpun 7y ago
    Yep I see the same thing in Poland. The thing is, to do most modern white collar office jobs well, you need to be somewhat intelligent, while the people who got their worthless degrees from degree mills are most often just average. They cannot learn quickly, they cannot communicate efficiently, they don't have an "active mind" that is always looking for a better solution. They are ok paper pushers, but the mindless office jobs are getting automated, and what is left is the jobs which require intelligence.
- clarry 7y ago
  Yep. I think around here you could make pretty good money as a competent welder. No big surprise, getting competent takes time and the working conditions aren't particularly luxurious. So there's a shortage of competent people, and the teens who are deciding where to go next in life don't seem interested in this kind of work.
maxxxxx 7y ago
If I had to choose careers again I would probably think more about finding something that’s more active and outside. My current job keeps me permanently at my desk or meeting rooms. No physical activity, no outside,no travel. This together with commuting being in a cube without daylight is really impacting my mental and physical wellbeing.
- chrisseaton 7y ago
  I’m in the Army Reserve for this reason. It’s a great hobby for a programmer to have.
  - asteli 7y ago
    You're not the only software engineer I know who's in the Reserves. The way my colleague talks about it, it feels like more duty than hobby. What tips it toward hobby for you? Asking as someone who has been curious about joining in a reserve force or volunteer SAR organization.
    - chrisseaton 7y ago
      I'm not sure if you mean a duty in a negative sense? Or in an obligation sense? I'm not obligated to do it and I'm sure they'd get by fine without me. It's a hobby because it's challenging, social, physical, rewarding and just fun. Go and see your local Reserve unit now if you are even remotely curious!
- cobbzilla 7y ago
  I’m volunteering with my local EMS service am loving it. It’s just about the opposite work environment as coding. I’m outside, moving around, helping people and working hand-on in a small & highly focused team. Knowing the basics of emergency medical care is a great life skill too. Interestingly the skill of “debugging” translates pretty well and is quite useful.
- planteen 7y ago
  I feel like that sometimes too. I find going for a run at lunch helps a lot. It also helps my reality in check - when the weather is nasty, I get to go back inside after my run is done. That wouldn't be the case if I had to work outdoors...
clarry 7y ago
> Part of the reason white-collar salaries are so high (along with demand) is that a lot of jobs actually aren't that interesting to do. I'd buy that if all these blue collar jobs seemed more interesting. Holy shit they tend to sound boring. Even when there's something interesting involved in the job (for example, as a machinist, you get to play with fancy expensive CNC machines!), it's often turned into monotonous and repetitive grind.
- sokoloff 7y ago
  Agree; I can't think of many things more monotonous than laying bricks, nailing off roofing shingle, installing 100s of outlets, or concrete flatwork.
- scruple 7y ago
  Because they _are_ boring. I have no idea what to think of the GP other than to assume they've never actually worked a blue collar job. I have. They suck. They're boring. They are the definition of boring work. Here's a list of manual labor jobs that I worked during my teenage years. This list will not include any job that I worked in my 20s. If I added all of the manual labor jobs that I had in my 20s I'd be here for the next hour. * Picking corn/green & soy beans/tomatoes/peppers/berries by hand (this is summer and fall only, mind you, so not only is boring it is also hot -- even when you start at 5:45AM, you get very little reprieve working the fields because you're there until 11AM or noon). * Working a farm stand, selling aforementioned corn/green & soy beans/tomatoes/peppers/fruit (moving up in the world!). * Flipping burgers / running a fry station / running a fast food cash register / washing dishes in a fast food joint. * Delivering pizzas. * Delivering printed materials (hard to explain, friends dad had a printing business, I ran deliveries for them for a while -- loading, unloading, driving. Driving for a living is easily the most boring thing that can ever happen to you, IMHO). * All manner of construction -- but mostly roofing and framing. * Working the end of a glass plant factory line, inspecting glass television screens for defects. OT was in abundance here and I would often work 16 hour shifts doing this. * Waterproofing basements / dealing with broken sump pumps / digging out deteriorating septic tanks. * Throwing boxes at a FedEx. This list represents ages 13 (maybe 14?) - 19 for me. 3 of these jobs were things that I did while attending University (though I left and didn't return until later in life). It doesn't get much better until 22. At 22 there's some manual labor that is disguised as technical work (military). A lot of this is or was seasonal work. That was the nature of manual labor, when and where I grew up. I'm sure that hasn't changed too much. All of these are boring jobs. They are mind-numbing in ways that are genuinely hard to express. If salaries are dictated by who is doing the most uninteresting work then we have things _completely_ backwards, IMO.
esoterica 7y ago
Being an EMT seems like it would be interesting in a bad way, not a good way. I don’t really want to see people dying in a gory way every day. Why do you think that being a mechanic or personal trainer is more “interesting” than being a software developer? I don’t think it’s true in the general case at all that blue collar work is on average more interesting than an office job.
- keiferski 7y ago
  A close friend is an EMT. According to him, 95% of the job is taking care of intoxicated people.

lotsofpulp 7y ago

I expect white collar pay to drop relative to blue collar pay in the future, it’s probably even happening now. Everyone knows the toll physical labor takes on your body, plus much of white collar work isn’t that hard so there’s a lot of supply of labor that are able to do it.

mantas 7y ago
It's already happening in some places. E.g. here in eastern europe. After USSR fell, everybody wanted to go to university. Because during soviet times you'd get assignment to a cushy job for life. Yet people missed that it's over and just having a degree from random university won't land you a job. Thus we have a shit ton of not-so-talented poorly motivated people with a degree. And a lack of tradesmen. End result is that a professional (show up on time, not drunk, do job up to specs) tradesman easily makes 2x or 3x salary of average citizen with university degree. Let alone it's hard to land a job in one's specialty because the market is overcrowded. Thankfully the trend is slowly reversing. Since the '08 crash tradeschools enroll more and more people. There's still a massive gap to be filled.
- badpun 7y ago
  Yep I see the same thing in Poland. The thing is, to do most modern white collar office jobs well, you need to be somewhat intelligent, while the people who got their worthless degrees from degree mills are most often just average. They cannot learn quickly, they cannot communicate efficiently, they don't have an "active mind" that is always looking for a better solution. They are ok paper pushers, but the mindless office jobs are getting automated, and what is left is the jobs which require intelligence.
clarry 7y ago
Yep. I think around here you could make pretty good money as a competent welder. No big surprise, getting competent takes time and the working conditions aren't particularly luxurious. So there's a shortage of competent people, and the teens who are deciding where to go next in life don't seem interested in this kind of work.

maxxxxx 7y ago

If I had to choose careers again I would probably think more about finding something that’s more active and outside. My current job keeps me permanently at my desk or meeting rooms. No physical activity, no outside,no travel. This together with commuting being in a cube without daylight is really impacting my mental and physical wellbeing.

chrisseaton 7y ago
I’m in the Army Reserve for this reason. It’s a great hobby for a programmer to have.
- asteli 7y ago
  You're not the only software engineer I know who's in the Reserves. The way my colleague talks about it, it feels like more duty than hobby. What tips it toward hobby for you? Asking as someone who has been curious about joining in a reserve force or volunteer SAR organization.
  - chrisseaton 7y ago
    I'm not sure if you mean a duty in a negative sense? Or in an obligation sense? I'm not obligated to do it and I'm sure they'd get by fine without me. It's a hobby because it's challenging, social, physical, rewarding and just fun. Go and see your local Reserve unit now if you are even remotely curious!
cobbzilla 7y ago
I’m volunteering with my local EMS service am loving it. It’s just about the opposite work environment as coding. I’m outside, moving around, helping people and working hand-on in a small & highly focused team. Knowing the basics of emergency medical care is a great life skill too. Interestingly the skill of “debugging” translates pretty well and is quite useful.
planteen 7y ago
I feel like that sometimes too. I find going for a run at lunch helps a lot. It also helps my reality in check - when the weather is nasty, I get to go back inside after my run is done. That wouldn't be the case if I had to work outdoors...

clarry 7y ago

> Part of the reason white-collar salaries are so high (along with demand) is that a lot of jobs actually aren't that interesting to do. I'd buy that if all these blue collar jobs seemed more interesting. Holy shit they tend to sound boring. Even when there's something interesting involved in the job (for example, as a machinist, you get to play with fancy expensive CNC machines!), it's often turned into monotonous and repetitive grind.

sokoloff 7y ago
Agree; I can't think of many things more monotonous than laying bricks, nailing off roofing shingle, installing 100s of outlets, or concrete flatwork.
scruple 7y ago
Because they _are_ boring. I have no idea what to think of the GP other than to assume they've never actually worked a blue collar job. I have. They suck. They're boring. They are the definition of boring work. Here's a list of manual labor jobs that I worked during my teenage years. This list will not include any job that I worked in my 20s. If I added all of the manual labor jobs that I had in my 20s I'd be here for the next hour. * Picking corn/green & soy beans/tomatoes/peppers/berries by hand (this is summer and fall only, mind you, so not only is boring it is also hot -- even when you start at 5:45AM, you get very little reprieve working the fields because you're there until 11AM or noon). * Working a farm stand, selling aforementioned corn/green & soy beans/tomatoes/peppers/fruit (moving up in the world!). * Flipping burgers / running a fry station / running a fast food cash register / washing dishes in a fast food joint. * Delivering pizzas. * Delivering printed materials (hard to explain, friends dad had a printing business, I ran deliveries for them for a while -- loading, unloading, driving. Driving for a living is easily the most boring thing that can ever happen to you, IMHO). * All manner of construction -- but mostly roofing and framing. * Working the end of a glass plant factory line, inspecting glass television screens for defects. OT was in abundance here and I would often work 16 hour shifts doing this. * Waterproofing basements / dealing with broken sump pumps / digging out deteriorating septic tanks. * Throwing boxes at a FedEx. This list represents ages 13 (maybe 14?) - 19 for me. 3 of these jobs were things that I did while attending University (though I left and didn't return until later in life). It doesn't get much better until 22. At 22 there's some manual labor that is disguised as technical work (military). A lot of this is or was seasonal work. That was the nature of manual labor, when and where I grew up. I'm sure that hasn't changed too much. All of these are boring jobs. They are mind-numbing in ways that are genuinely hard to express. If salaries are dictated by who is doing the most uninteresting work then we have things _completely_ backwards, IMO.

esoterica 7y ago

Being an EMT seems like it would be interesting in a bad way, not a good way. I don’t really want to see people dying in a gory way every day. Why do you think that being a mechanic or personal trainer is more “interesting” than being a software developer? I don’t think it’s true in the general case at all that blue collar work is on average more interesting than an office job.

keiferski 7y ago
A close friend is an EMT. According to him, 95% of the job is taking care of intoxicated people.