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I'm curious whether you feel the same way about windows, which kill hundreds of millions of birds each year. [0] [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/he

I'm curious whether you feel the same way about windows, which kill hundreds of millions of birds each year. [0] [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/stop-blaming-cats-as-many-as-988-million-birds-die-annually-in-window-collisions/2014/02/03/9837fe80-8866-11e3-916e-e01534b1e132_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/stop-...

iforgotpassword 7y ago
But I'm using Linux! But seriously my guess would be that most people do feel differently about this. The window issue is passive, while those machines actively kill the birds. Makes it seem much more evil.
- snazz 7y ago
  And windows actively add a significant quality-of-life value for humans worldwide, while one type of olive harvesting machine is less obviously beneficial.
  - misterman0 7y ago
    That's rare to hear, on HN.
781 7y ago
> The biggest share of the collision deaths comes not from glass massacres at skyscrapers but from occasional collisions with the nation’s many small buildings We don't really have an alternative for windows on small building, unless you want to go back to living in caves. We do for olive picking.
- AnaniasAnanas 7y ago
  We do have actually, there is no need for our windows to be made our of transparent materials.
  - BrandoElFollito 7y ago
    So what should they be made of? I do not want to live in a cave, I want sunlight. I also want to be protected from cold, wind and rain. I do not see any alternative with current technology
    - leetcrew 7y ago
      I'm inclined to agree with you, but how different is this from saying "I don't want to pay more for olives"? edit: on the other hand, one of the other comments in this thread links to an article that suggests that closely spaced decals or visible screens can greatly decrease the amount of birds that fly into windows and die. we could still have natural light indoors, but we might need to make some aesthetic compromises with our buildings.
    - AnaniasAnanas 7y ago
      > I do not want to live in a cave You don't have to though. I am pretty sure that most of the European population until at least the 17th century did not have glass windows, and neither did the far-eastern cultures, which used paper instead - yet at the same time they did not live in caves. > I want sunlight. I also want to be protected from cold, wind and rain. If the windows are fully opaque just open them when you want sunlight - having sunlight while it is cold, windy, and raining is not that common after all.
    - tomrod 7y ago
      Frosted glass, screens, and ability to open windows.
      - darkpuma 7y ago
        Do you know what happens when a bird 'runs into' a window that was open? You have to spend the next half hour chasing it around your house with a broom. I'm speaking from experience here.
        tomrod 7y ago
- gridlockd 7y ago
  > We don't really have an alternative for windows on small building, unless you want to go back to living in caves. That's not true at all. Glass windows didn't become commonplace until after the middle ages. Surely there would be something you could do to windows that makes birds not fly into them: https://www.audubon.org/news/help-birds-avoid-deadly-collision https://www.audubon.org/news/help-birds-avoid-deadly-collisi... You're not arguing on principle, you're just saying that killing birds for cheaper olives is less acceptable than killing birds for "clean" glass windows.
dictum 7y ago
I was fascinated when I learned that many universities have discussion groups within their Biology/Natural Sciences/Ornithology departments dedicated to identifying and cataloging dead birds, and most of their urban finds died from colliding with windows.
tomatotomato37 7y ago
Also don't forget about wind turbines. Those result in some magnitude of thousands of bird kills (why is this such a contested figure‽) but are still necessary if we don't want to start rationing out electricity. Edit: Wrong reply chain
- mikeash 7y ago
  It’s a contested figure because groups against renewable energy exaggerate the figures to try to push a hypocrisy angle on environmentalists.
- jyounker 7y ago
  The figure is disputed because it depends upon the kind of wind turbines. Old wind turbines were much smaller, they had more blades, and they turned much faster. My understanding is that this led to many more bird deaths.
xoa 7y ago
>I'm curious whether you feel the same way about windows, which kill hundreds of millions of birds each year. I do feel the same way, which is why I take steps to remediate it on all of my windows duh. I put up screens on many windows year round (higher light pass through meshes like UltraVue make this much less of an impact on views vs older ones, and the tech could improve farther), ultraviolet decals/solutions (also lower view impact, they look milky clear to humans but strongly reflect UV which most birds can see, though since they're chemical they must be refreshed), golden spiderweb decals on some higher windows, etc. On new buildings thought can be put into materials, how the windows face vs light and surrounding environments, and so on as well. There are plenty of remediation steps available even for existing structures though and yes those steps should be taken. You casting this as some zero-sum game is confusing regardless, because even if no steps were possible for windows rather then many, why the heck would you suggest that meant we shouldn't encourage what action could be taken?

iforgotpassword 7y ago

But I'm using Linux! But seriously my guess would be that most people do feel differently about this. The window issue is passive, while those machines actively kill the birds. Makes it seem much more evil.

snazz 7y ago
And windows actively add a significant quality-of-life value for humans worldwide, while one type of olive harvesting machine is less obviously beneficial.
- misterman0 7y ago
  That's rare to hear, on HN.

781 7y ago

> The biggest share of the collision deaths comes not from glass massacres at skyscrapers but from occasional collisions with the nation’s many small buildings We don't really have an alternative for windows on small building, unless you want to go back to living in caves. We do for olive picking.

AnaniasAnanas 7y ago
We do have actually, there is no need for our windows to be made our of transparent materials.
- BrandoElFollito 7y ago
  So what should they be made of? I do not want to live in a cave, I want sunlight. I also want to be protected from cold, wind and rain. I do not see any alternative with current technology
  - leetcrew 7y ago
    I'm inclined to agree with you, but how different is this from saying "I don't want to pay more for olives"? edit: on the other hand, one of the other comments in this thread links to an article that suggests that closely spaced decals or visible screens can greatly decrease the amount of birds that fly into windows and die. we could still have natural light indoors, but we might need to make some aesthetic compromises with our buildings.
  - AnaniasAnanas 7y ago
    > I do not want to live in a cave You don't have to though. I am pretty sure that most of the European population until at least the 17th century did not have glass windows, and neither did the far-eastern cultures, which used paper instead - yet at the same time they did not live in caves. > I want sunlight. I also want to be protected from cold, wind and rain. If the windows are fully opaque just open them when you want sunlight - having sunlight while it is cold, windy, and raining is not that common after all.
  - tomrod 7y ago
    Frosted glass, screens, and ability to open windows.
    - darkpuma 7y ago
      Do you know what happens when a bird 'runs into' a window that was open? You have to spend the next half hour chasing it around your house with a broom. I'm speaking from experience here.
      - tomrod 7y ago
gridlockd 7y ago
> We don't really have an alternative for windows on small building, unless you want to go back to living in caves. That's not true at all. Glass windows didn't become commonplace until after the middle ages. Surely there would be something you could do to windows that makes birds not fly into them: https://www.audubon.org/news/help-birds-avoid-deadly-collision https://www.audubon.org/news/help-birds-avoid-deadly-collisi... You're not arguing on principle, you're just saying that killing birds for cheaper olives is less acceptable than killing birds for "clean" glass windows.

dictum 7y ago

I was fascinated when I learned that many universities have discussion groups within their Biology/Natural Sciences/Ornithology departments dedicated to identifying and cataloging dead birds, and most of their urban finds died from colliding with windows.

tomatotomato37 7y ago

Also don't forget about wind turbines. Those result in some magnitude of thousands of bird kills (why is this such a contested figure‽) but are still necessary if we don't want to start rationing out electricity. Edit: Wrong reply chain

mikeash 7y ago
It’s a contested figure because groups against renewable energy exaggerate the figures to try to push a hypocrisy angle on environmentalists.
jyounker 7y ago
The figure is disputed because it depends upon the kind of wind turbines. Old wind turbines were much smaller, they had more blades, and they turned much faster. My understanding is that this led to many more bird deaths.

xoa 7y ago

>I'm curious whether you feel the same way about windows, which kill hundreds of millions of birds each year. I do feel the same way, which is why I take steps to remediate it on all of my windows duh. I put up screens on many windows year round (higher light pass through meshes like UltraVue make this much less of an impact on views vs older ones, and the tech could improve farther), ultraviolet decals/solutions (also lower view impact, they look milky clear to humans but strongly reflect UV which most birds can see, though since they're chemical they must be refreshed), golden spiderweb decals on some higher windows, etc. On new buildings thought can be put into materials, how the windows face vs light and surrounding environments, and so on as well. There are plenty of remediation steps available even for existing structures though and yes those steps should be taken. You casting this as some zero-sum game is confusing regardless, because even if no steps were possible for windows rather then many, why the heck would you suggest that meant we shouldn't encourage what action could be taken?