5 ms·

This article and the pics of the dead birds broke my heart. :-( I can’t understand any human not pausing to think twice and to find alternatives when faced wit

by ak39 7y ago

This article and the pics of the dead birds broke my heart. :-( I can’t understand any human not pausing to think twice and to find alternatives when faced with such horrendous death of innocent creatures. Yeah it’s cheap and efficient but it kills millions of birds. Find another way! I don’t want your fancy olives if you don’t care about what you’re doing to the birds.

Amygaz 7y ago
I understand what you want to say, but taken literally, I am sure you know many humans who would not pause and think twice about the birds. They would think twice about the cheapest way to harvest and that would pretty much be the extend of it.
- TheAdamAndChe 7y ago
  In our economic system, that's kind of how it works. It's a survival-of-the-fittest environment, where anyone who can exploit the rules of the legal system while making the most profit will grow to be the largest. That's why you see so many "unethical" huge corporations in the world, because they were the ones that learned to exploit the system. To actually change the outcome at-scale, you need to change the system, which we haven't figured out how to do yet while still providing a good quality of life.
  - nihilismislove 7y ago
    I doubt it that the quality of life would drop significantly should the olives be harvested during the day rather than at night. There are many problems to solve in the politics and economy which doesn't mean we cannot enforce specific policies for specific problems.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - qazpot 7y ago
    > In our economic system, that's kind of how it works. It's a survival-of-the-fittest environment. I doubt that the survival-of-the-fittest environment is a product of the economic system. It is the converse which is true. Our society which includes economic system is a product of survival-of-the-fittest because it is hardcoded in our DNA, in fact in the genetic material of every living thing.
    - perfmode 7y ago
      This is fallacious
    - skybrian 7y ago
      Businesses have decision-makers who are not simply paperclip-maximizers. They read the news and have opinions about right and wrong. This means politics matters; it isn't all economic incentives, let alone genetics. This doesn't mean it's easy to change people's minds, though.
- onetimemanytime 7y ago
  Like the previous commenter said: You do things ethically and you need to price your product at $1.87 a lbs. Someone else gives them less room, add some crap to make them grow faster and can make e larger profit by pricing at $1.55 or whatever. Guess who will go out of business?
pergadad 7y ago
Really sad and shocking. On the other hand, one glance at industrial meat production shows how little we as a species care about our fellow creatures. Live animals (male chicks) thrown in meat grinders, calves separated at birth from their mothers, pigs living with horrendous infections in their own waste, geese force-fed no matter the pain,just to produce fat livers. And then the animals are ferried off to be killed in the most horrendous ways. You and I are both contributing to this by the choices we make to eat the cheapest/easiest/most convenient... meals.
- is_true 7y ago
  I dont know where are you from but I visited a pig farm near where I live and they are in really clean spaces because they grow faster, and also regulations.
  - nihilismislove 7y ago
    That's not how it works. The space being "clean" doesn't really help much. Consider the transport and killing, and also the fact that by far the largest number of animals killed for meat (excluding fish) are factory-farmed chickens and chicken factory-farming always looks the same
  - megous 7y ago
    Chicks for example. I don't say it's not clean, but this is how industrial scale production looks like. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RV-rO2-Rwz4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RV-rO2-Rwz4
pvaldes 7y ago
> but it kills millions of birds Presumably. Is an hypothese. The article talks about "nearly 100.000 birds killed in Portugal" but the title extrapolates it somehow to "millions of birds killed in Mediterranean" without more supporting data. 96.000 != "millions". That extrapolation is assuming that all olives in Mediterranean are from the same variety. Another source of statistical error unchecked and running wild in their extrapolation. Olives are collected from September (green) to May but mainly between November to January. For some reason, the study forgot to mention that most migrating birds are in Africa in Nov-Jan. Only some common species remain. I see a photo with three dead thrushes and a fringillid. Four dead birds. What is well known is that Malta or Lebanon kills much more migrating birds each year, including protected species, raptors etc. If you look for 2,5 millions of dissapeared birds each year the correct answer is probably here: https://conservationaction.co.za/recent-news/stop-killing-lebanese-president-speaks-migratory-birds/ https://conservationaction.co.za/recent-news/stop-killing-le...
kyberias 7y ago
The same innocent creatures will experience a horrendous death in the wild any way.
- PretzelPirate 7y ago
  This is an odd comment. If someone has a high chance of having a horrible death, does that justify us killing them in whatever way we see fit?
  - kyberias 7y ago
    The natural world is filled with horrible pain and deaths. These do not add to that in quality. Maybe in quantity.
leetcrew 7y ago
I'm curious whether you feel the same way about windows, which kill hundreds of millions of birds each year. [0] [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/stop-blaming-cats-as-many-as-988-million-birds-die-annually-in-window-collisions/2014/02/03/9837fe80-8866-11e3-916e-e01534b1e132_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/stop-...
- iforgotpassword 7y ago
  But I'm using Linux! But seriously my guess would be that most people do feel differently about this. The window issue is passive, while those machines actively kill the birds. Makes it seem much more evil.
  - snazz 7y ago
    And windows actively add a significant quality-of-life value for humans worldwide, while one type of olive harvesting machine is less obviously beneficial.
    - misterman0 7y ago
      That's rare to hear, on HN.
- 781 7y ago
  > The biggest share of the collision deaths comes not from glass massacres at skyscrapers but from occasional collisions with the nation’s many small buildings We don't really have an alternative for windows on small building, unless you want to go back to living in caves. We do for olive picking.
  - AnaniasAnanas 7y ago
    We do have actually, there is no need for our windows to be made our of transparent materials.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
lohszvu 7y ago
You seem obvious to the real world
- gopher2 7y ago
  Actually in the real world there are plenty of people who will learn about this and change how they buy olives.
logicuce 7y ago
Are you a vegetarian?
dnhz 7y ago
Humans kill 50 billion chickens a year. Does your sympathy extend far enough to eat a purely plant-based diet?

by ak39 7y ago

Amygaz 7y ago

I understand what you want to say, but taken literally, I am sure you know many humans who would not pause and think twice about the birds. They would think twice about the cheapest way to harvest and that would pretty much be the extend of it.

TheAdamAndChe 7y ago
In our economic system, that's kind of how it works. It's a survival-of-the-fittest environment, where anyone who can exploit the rules of the legal system while making the most profit will grow to be the largest. That's why you see so many "unethical" huge corporations in the world, because they were the ones that learned to exploit the system. To actually change the outcome at-scale, you need to change the system, which we haven't figured out how to do yet while still providing a good quality of life.
- nihilismislove 7y ago
  I doubt it that the quality of life would drop significantly should the olives be harvested during the day rather than at night. There are many problems to solve in the politics and economy which doesn't mean we cannot enforce specific policies for specific problems.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- qazpot 7y ago
  > In our economic system, that's kind of how it works. It's a survival-of-the-fittest environment. I doubt that the survival-of-the-fittest environment is a product of the economic system. It is the converse which is true. Our society which includes economic system is a product of survival-of-the-fittest because it is hardcoded in our DNA, in fact in the genetic material of every living thing.
  - perfmode 7y ago
    This is fallacious
  - skybrian 7y ago
    Businesses have decision-makers who are not simply paperclip-maximizers. They read the news and have opinions about right and wrong. This means politics matters; it isn't all economic incentives, let alone genetics. This doesn't mean it's easy to change people's minds, though.
onetimemanytime 7y ago
Like the previous commenter said: You do things ethically and you need to price your product at $1.87 a lbs. Someone else gives them less room, add some crap to make them grow faster and can make e larger profit by pricing at $1.55 or whatever. Guess who will go out of business?

pergadad 7y ago

Really sad and shocking. On the other hand, one glance at industrial meat production shows how little we as a species care about our fellow creatures. Live animals (male chicks) thrown in meat grinders, calves separated at birth from their mothers, pigs living with horrendous infections in their own waste, geese force-fed no matter the pain,just to produce fat livers. And then the animals are ferried off to be killed in the most horrendous ways. You and I are both contributing to this by the choices we make to eat the cheapest/easiest/most convenient... meals.

is_true 7y ago
I dont know where are you from but I visited a pig farm near where I live and they are in really clean spaces because they grow faster, and also regulations.
- nihilismislove 7y ago
  That's not how it works. The space being "clean" doesn't really help much. Consider the transport and killing, and also the fact that by far the largest number of animals killed for meat (excluding fish) are factory-farmed chickens and chicken factory-farming always looks the same
- megous 7y ago
  Chicks for example. I don't say it's not clean, but this is how industrial scale production looks like. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RV-rO2-Rwz4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RV-rO2-Rwz4

pvaldes 7y ago

> but it kills millions of birds Presumably. Is an hypothese. The article talks about "nearly 100.000 birds killed in Portugal" but the title extrapolates it somehow to "millions of birds killed in Mediterranean" without more supporting data. 96.000 != "millions". That extrapolation is assuming that all olives in Mediterranean are from the same variety. Another source of statistical error unchecked and running wild in their extrapolation. Olives are collected from September (green) to May but mainly between November to January. For some reason, the study forgot to mention that most migrating birds are in Africa in Nov-Jan. Only some common species remain. I see a photo with three dead thrushes and a fringillid. Four dead birds. What is well known is that Malta or Lebanon kills much more migrating birds each year, including protected species, raptors etc. If you look for 2,5 millions of dissapeared birds each year the correct answer is probably here: https://conservationaction.co.za/recent-news/stop-killing-lebanese-president-speaks-migratory-birds/ https://conservationaction.co.za/recent-news/stop-killing-le...

kyberias 7y ago

The same innocent creatures will experience a horrendous death in the wild any way.

PretzelPirate 7y ago
This is an odd comment. If someone has a high chance of having a horrible death, does that justify us killing them in whatever way we see fit?
- kyberias 7y ago
  The natural world is filled with horrible pain and deaths. These do not add to that in quality. Maybe in quantity.

leetcrew 7y ago

I'm curious whether you feel the same way about windows, which kill hundreds of millions of birds each year. [0] [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/stop-blaming-cats-as-many-as-988-million-birds-die-annually-in-window-collisions/2014/02/03/9837fe80-8866-11e3-916e-e01534b1e132_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/stop-...

iforgotpassword 7y ago
But I'm using Linux! But seriously my guess would be that most people do feel differently about this. The window issue is passive, while those machines actively kill the birds. Makes it seem much more evil.
- snazz 7y ago
  And windows actively add a significant quality-of-life value for humans worldwide, while one type of olive harvesting machine is less obviously beneficial.
  - misterman0 7y ago
    That's rare to hear, on HN.
781 7y ago
> The biggest share of the collision deaths comes not from glass massacres at skyscrapers but from occasional collisions with the nation’s many small buildings We don't really have an alternative for windows on small building, unless you want to go back to living in caves. We do for olive picking.
- AnaniasAnanas 7y ago
  We do have actually, there is no need for our windows to be made our of transparent materials.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

lohszvu 7y ago

You seem obvious to the real world

gopher2 7y ago
Actually in the real world there are plenty of people who will learn about this and change how they buy olives.

logicuce 7y ago

Are you a vegetarian?

dnhz 7y ago

Humans kill 50 billion chickens a year. Does your sympathy extend far enough to eat a purely plant-based diet?