5 ms·

It's a very easy way to find the 0.5x engineer. But I agree, it should not be a show stopper. (Emacs and vscode user here)

yoz-y 7y ago
I believe todays programming field is vast enough that you can actually have a really good engineer that never needed to touch a command line editor. An iOS or android developer with 8 years of experience for example. Other front-end positions too. I love vi and set it as editing mode everywhere, nevertheless I accept that it might not be something people actively seek. If I was looking for a unix server admin then I would definitely assume they know vi.
- walshemj 7y ago
  not for realy good Engineer in my book.
  - detaro 7y ago
    Why is "unix server administration in an environment that doesn't have other options" such a critical skill for all engineers? Or why else is vim experience required? Sure, many are going to have it, but it doesn't mean anything in itself.
    - prepend 7y ago
      I don’t consider vi to be a system admin tool only. While I don’t think vi is a showstopper, it would certainly be curious how a mid to senior engineer wouldn’t know how to use insert and quit in vi. This would make me think that a Windows only background never even meant connecting to a shell and having to view a file. I’ve experienced lots of app developers who only use an IDE and don’t know how code is deployed or runs so they’ve never debugged a deployment, ever. They are in a big enough environment where that’s someone else’s job and they never have to talk with them. That’s perfectly cool and folks will make a living and retiring in that world. But I don’t typically hire too many of those because I work in cross functional teams where the windows devs have to at least be able to understand and communicate with the Linux devs, and vice versa. That means having basic user level skills like two commands in vi, because it is almost always available on Unix systems. And frequently the only one allowed. I think folks confuse this as meaning that people who don’t know vi are dumb, they aren’t. They could be geniuses who just don’t need to know vi. But for many types of interviews, it’s a super easy screening question that makes me follow up with more questions if they answer “I have to google.” It would be similar if a developer didn’t know cd or had never seen notepad or something.
      - detaro 7y ago
        The comment I replied to said that a "really good" engineer has to know vi, that's what I was responding to, not "nearly all good engineers in my specific area will know vi", which is a lot more reasonable. For a Linux desktop user, including devs, I wouldn't consider not knowing vi to be that odd, given that other editors commonly ship or are a single install command away. For someone not working on Linux, it's even less expected.
        prepend 7y ago
        Right, I think a vast majority of “really good” engineers will know minimal vi skills. My point is that you can be a perfectly nice programmer with a full career without being really good.
    - walshemj 7y ago
      I said really good for a reason and vi is used for other things than pure sysad work
- panpanna 7y ago
  The point is, a good engineer is always curious and as such has gathered a lot of knowledge about other fields. Maybe he is a unix server admin that writes iOS app on his own time just for fun? Maybe he is a data scientist that also enjoys UI design? A bad engineer is happy that he has learned framework X and doesn't feel he needs to learn anything else. Putting the Linux admin candidate in front of an xcode window is a quick and to find out where he stands. If he looks totally lost, he is definitely a 10x guy.
  - yoz-y 7y ago
    I agree, but my point is that today there are so many fields to be curious about that knowledge or not of vi is just one of them. There is no time to know about everything. > Putting the Linux admin candidate in front of an xcode window is a quick and to find out where he stands. If he looks totally lost, he is definitely a 10x guy. They are or they are not? Judging by the previous paragraph this sentence seems odd.
    - panpanna 7y ago
      Sorry, I meant "is definitely not"
- walshemj 7y ago
  Says a lot about googles recruiting standards you do know until recently "front end developers" were designers.

yoz-y 7y ago

I believe todays programming field is vast enough that you can actually have a really good engineer that never needed to touch a command line editor. An iOS or android developer with 8 years of experience for example. Other front-end positions too. I love vi and set it as editing mode everywhere, nevertheless I accept that it might not be something people actively seek. If I was looking for a unix server admin then I would definitely assume they know vi.

walshemj 7y ago
not for realy good Engineer in my book.
- detaro 7y ago
  Why is "unix server administration in an environment that doesn't have other options" such a critical skill for all engineers? Or why else is vim experience required? Sure, many are going to have it, but it doesn't mean anything in itself.
  - prepend 7y ago
    I don’t consider vi to be a system admin tool only. While I don’t think vi is a showstopper, it would certainly be curious how a mid to senior engineer wouldn’t know how to use insert and quit in vi. This would make me think that a Windows only background never even meant connecting to a shell and having to view a file. I’ve experienced lots of app developers who only use an IDE and don’t know how code is deployed or runs so they’ve never debugged a deployment, ever. They are in a big enough environment where that’s someone else’s job and they never have to talk with them. That’s perfectly cool and folks will make a living and retiring in that world. But I don’t typically hire too many of those because I work in cross functional teams where the windows devs have to at least be able to understand and communicate with the Linux devs, and vice versa. That means having basic user level skills like two commands in vi, because it is almost always available on Unix systems. And frequently the only one allowed. I think folks confuse this as meaning that people who don’t know vi are dumb, they aren’t. They could be geniuses who just don’t need to know vi. But for many types of interviews, it’s a super easy screening question that makes me follow up with more questions if they answer “I have to google.” It would be similar if a developer didn’t know cd or had never seen notepad or something.
    - detaro 7y ago
      The comment I replied to said that a "really good" engineer has to know vi, that's what I was responding to, not "nearly all good engineers in my specific area will know vi", which is a lot more reasonable. For a Linux desktop user, including devs, I wouldn't consider not knowing vi to be that odd, given that other editors commonly ship or are a single install command away. For someone not working on Linux, it's even less expected.
      - prepend 7y ago
        Right, I think a vast majority of “really good” engineers will know minimal vi skills. My point is that you can be a perfectly nice programmer with a full career without being really good.
  - walshemj 7y ago
    I said really good for a reason and vi is used for other things than pure sysad work
panpanna 7y ago
The point is, a good engineer is always curious and as such has gathered a lot of knowledge about other fields. Maybe he is a unix server admin that writes iOS app on his own time just for fun? Maybe he is a data scientist that also enjoys UI design? A bad engineer is happy that he has learned framework X and doesn't feel he needs to learn anything else. Putting the Linux admin candidate in front of an xcode window is a quick and to find out where he stands. If he looks totally lost, he is definitely a 10x guy.
- yoz-y 7y ago
  I agree, but my point is that today there are so many fields to be curious about that knowledge or not of vi is just one of them. There is no time to know about everything. > Putting the Linux admin candidate in front of an xcode window is a quick and to find out where he stands. If he looks totally lost, he is definitely a 10x guy. They are or they are not? Judging by the previous paragraph this sentence seems odd.
  - panpanna 7y ago
    Sorry, I meant "is definitely not"
walshemj 7y ago
Says a lot about googles recruiting standards you do know until recently "front end developers" were designers.