5 ms·

> So, your code isn’t working, what do you do? Stare blankly at the monitor? This always gets me. When the interviewer asks a question, the correct answer is l

by spyspy 7y ago

> So, your code isn’t working, what do you do? Stare blankly at the monitor? This always gets me. When the interviewer asks a question, the correct answer is literally never, “let me think about it quietly for a moment”. This is one of the disconnects between interview programming and real programming people get frustrated over.

mooreds 7y ago
Hmm. The point of an interview isn't for an applicant just to solve the problem, it's to prove they can solve the problem. I think saying "let me think about it for a moment" is perfectly acceptable. But going quiet without guiding the interviewer is not communicating what your plan is. Not saying interviewing isn't broken in a myriad of ways, but asking a candidate to talk through their process to illuminate it isn't unreasonable.
- trickstra 7y ago
  > I think saying "let me think about it for a moment" is perfectly acceptable. yes, you do, but many interviewers don't and that's the problem
  - mooreds 7y ago
    Ah, but then you have a great data point, no? If someone cuts you off when you are interviewing, how will they treat you when you are an employee? The information flow goes both ways.
    - trickstra 7y ago
      These are usually agency interviewers or HR people. Sure, I'd definitely take that into account if this was interview with IT lead, but you don't get to that before going through this programming task with some HR guy. They will then pass your solution to some devs for assessment, because they don't understand it. But they are the gatekeepers.
      - mooreds 7y ago
        Fair enough. I haven't run into that, probably because I interviewed with smaller companies. I have no tips on solving that problem.
        trickstra 7y ago
        Appreciated. I don't have a real solution either, that's why it's so infuriating. I just try to keep my skills up-to-date and my CV shiny to have more choices. Then I can at least pick what I like, and safely reject companies which have this silly way of interviewing, hoping they would learn. But looking at all the spam I'm getting on linkedin, it seems like I would run into such problem in 90% of the cases.
- ubersoldat2k7 7y ago
  I have had such hard times with this. I find it very hard to think about the problem and to think what to say to this person without fucking up the interview. I mean, you don't want to say: "I'm going to trial & error this shit while the fucking compiler builds and the stupid tests say it works" which is how must programming is done anyway.
  - mooreds 7y ago
    I wouldn't use those exact words, no :). But hopefully you have some ideas on what you want to try (and what your experience says you shouldn't, equally important) and talking about that thought process is exactly the kind of data I would want.
  - clarry 7y ago
    > I find it very hard to think about the problem and to think what to say to this person without fucking up the interview. It doesn't even take an interview, we've quit pair sessions because it's sometimes fucking impossible to focus on deep stuff with another person competing for your attention. Shut up, go away, let me focus and solve this is a perfectly good approach in real work.
- clarry 7y ago
  > The point of an interview isn't for an applicant just to solve the problem, it's to prove they can solve the problem. Well if you solve it, then you've proved that you can solve it, right? So let people solve it the way they solve it when they're working for real. If that means sitting quietly and focusing on their screen, so be it. Alternatively, the point of an interview is for the applicant to pretend they're bright and solving it on the spot while broadcasting how smart they are: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17106291 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17106291
  - mooreds 7y ago
    > Well if you solve it, then you've proved that you can solve it, right? Which gives you more data on how someone works and thinks? 1. Person silently sits for 15 minutes and then codes up a solution that meets the test criteria in another 15 minutes, typing quickly. 2. Person talks about the issues, tradeoffs and experiences while coding. They ask questions and engage in some discussion around the problem set. They end up with a partial solution after 30 minutes. Of course those are hypothetical extremes, but it is clear to me which scenario gives the interviewer more information.
trickstra 7y ago
It only shows this interviewer doesn't really know much about programmers' daily job and has never been programming themselves. Also this: "It’s funny how many people can’t edit text on any machine but their own." - I bought a notebook without properly checking the keyboard and even now after 3 years it still bugs me everytime I type. Nobody can understand how these things can really limit focus. If I got a different computer with different keyboard, different operating system, different text editor (not even an IDE) and was asked to write a program, my focus would be totally ruined, compared to my actual daily work.
- mooreds 7y ago
  I once interviewed in a code base I didn't know, using a language I didn't know (kotlin, so close to a language I do know, Java), in an editor I didn't know. I didn't get the job, but I don't believe it was because of my performance on the coding portion of the application (based on inference). But that was an error on my part. They offered to let me code a different problem on my own machine and I didn't take advantage, having a bit of overconfidence in my ability to pick up things quickly. But I prefer to let applicants pick whatever language (within limits) and editor/ide they want for our current hiring process. It's much more about how they solve a problem and navigate their tools (because that's an indicator too) than how they can use my stack.
  - trickstra 7y ago
    Exactly! How is it relevant to the job if the applicant is able to adapt to a new editor and new keyboard quickly? Even with a new computer, they will set it up once and then never do it again. Let the programmer chose whatever language, whatever carefully crafted settings in IDE that make them comfortable, to solve the problem effectively, because that's what matters. Problem solving is influenced heavily by these seemingly irrelevant details. It's like inspiration, you need a clear mind for that.
- scarface74 7y ago
  I’m glad one of my interviewers didn’t feel that way. I was about to start a pair programming session and they had an ergonomic split keyboard for me to use. I just asked for a regular keyboard, I purposefully didn’t explain why just to see what they would say. They had no problem finding me one. After they gave me the keyboard, I told them that I can only type with one hand for physical reasons.
wccrawford 7y ago
While I wouldn't consider that a "correct answer", I'd be willing to be patient and let them think about it for a minute or 2. I may look annoyed, or even pull out my phone and start browsing news, but it's not actually taking points away from them until it drags on too long. Of course, there's not really a way to tell in advance if you get an interviewer like me, or a jerk that insists you know everything off the top of your head.
- bostik 7y ago
  > * I may look annoyed, or even pull out my phone and start browsing news* If I, as an interviewer, ever did that I would: a) expect the candidate to walk out, and b) get told off by pretty much everyone in the company. Deservedly. I really cannot think of a ruder way to express "you do not matter" sentiment than completely ignoring the candidate and flip through random stuff on my phone - while conducting an interview.
hjk05 7y ago
Well of cause you can think quietly about it, but you in an interview situation so you need to communicate that’s what your doing. Literally just saying “hmm, that should not happen, let me think about what’s going on” is all it takes.
yani 7y ago
I was interviewing a guy for IT position 6 years ago. After one of the questions, he went silent for a long period of time. It has not happened to me before. I did not think for a moment about interrupting him, it was obvious he is thinking how to approach the problem or his answer. Interviewing people requires patience, cut down on caffeine before an interview
fit2rule 7y ago
When I interview people, and they get stuck on a programming problem like this, I tell them "it is completely acceptable for you to show me your Google fu to overcome this problem". Google-fu is just as important a skill as knowing how to exit vi.
- thiht 7y ago
  What's a fu?
  - krapp 7y ago
    It's like "kung fu" but for Google (or whatever). It's meant to imply mastery of some technique.
  - bmn__ 7y ago
    http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/F/suffix-fu.html http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/F/suffix-fu.html
mcherm 7y ago
Actually, in an interview situation, "Let me think about that for a minute." followed by 120 seconds of silence, followed by a solid answer is a GREAT response. That's different from when the candidate is asked a question and they literally just become silent, with a "deer in the headlights" expression.
- GoToRO 7y ago
  Usually when you ask for a minute the guy says yes and then just continues rambling...

by spyspy 7y ago

mooreds 7y ago

Hmm. The point of an interview isn't for an applicant just to solve the problem, it's to prove they can solve the problem. I think saying "let me think about it for a moment" is perfectly acceptable. But going quiet without guiding the interviewer is not communicating what your plan is. Not saying interviewing isn't broken in a myriad of ways, but asking a candidate to talk through their process to illuminate it isn't unreasonable.

trickstra 7y ago
> I think saying "let me think about it for a moment" is perfectly acceptable. yes, you do, but many interviewers don't and that's the problem
- mooreds 7y ago
  Ah, but then you have a great data point, no? If someone cuts you off when you are interviewing, how will they treat you when you are an employee? The information flow goes both ways.
  - trickstra 7y ago
    These are usually agency interviewers or HR people. Sure, I'd definitely take that into account if this was interview with IT lead, but you don't get to that before going through this programming task with some HR guy. They will then pass your solution to some devs for assessment, because they don't understand it. But they are the gatekeepers.
    - mooreds 7y ago
      Fair enough. I haven't run into that, probably because I interviewed with smaller companies. I have no tips on solving that problem.
      - trickstra 7y ago
        Appreciated. I don't have a real solution either, that's why it's so infuriating. I just try to keep my skills up-to-date and my CV shiny to have more choices. Then I can at least pick what I like, and safely reject companies which have this silly way of interviewing, hoping they would learn. But looking at all the spam I'm getting on linkedin, it seems like I would run into such problem in 90% of the cases.
ubersoldat2k7 7y ago
I have had such hard times with this. I find it very hard to think about the problem and to think what to say to this person without fucking up the interview. I mean, you don't want to say: "I'm going to trial & error this shit while the fucking compiler builds and the stupid tests say it works" which is how must programming is done anyway.
- mooreds 7y ago
  I wouldn't use those exact words, no :). But hopefully you have some ideas on what you want to try (and what your experience says you shouldn't, equally important) and talking about that thought process is exactly the kind of data I would want.
- clarry 7y ago
  > I find it very hard to think about the problem and to think what to say to this person without fucking up the interview. It doesn't even take an interview, we've quit pair sessions because it's sometimes fucking impossible to focus on deep stuff with another person competing for your attention. Shut up, go away, let me focus and solve this is a perfectly good approach in real work.
clarry 7y ago
> The point of an interview isn't for an applicant just to solve the problem, it's to prove they can solve the problem. Well if you solve it, then you've proved that you can solve it, right? So let people solve it the way they solve it when they're working for real. If that means sitting quietly and focusing on their screen, so be it. Alternatively, the point of an interview is for the applicant to pretend they're bright and solving it on the spot while broadcasting how smart they are: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17106291 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17106291
- mooreds 7y ago
  > Well if you solve it, then you've proved that you can solve it, right? Which gives you more data on how someone works and thinks? 1. Person silently sits for 15 minutes and then codes up a solution that meets the test criteria in another 15 minutes, typing quickly. 2. Person talks about the issues, tradeoffs and experiences while coding. They ask questions and engage in some discussion around the problem set. They end up with a partial solution after 30 minutes. Of course those are hypothetical extremes, but it is clear to me which scenario gives the interviewer more information.

trickstra 7y ago

It only shows this interviewer doesn't really know much about programmers' daily job and has never been programming themselves. Also this: "It’s funny how many people can’t edit text on any machine but their own." - I bought a notebook without properly checking the keyboard and even now after 3 years it still bugs me everytime I type. Nobody can understand how these things can really limit focus. If I got a different computer with different keyboard, different operating system, different text editor (not even an IDE) and was asked to write a program, my focus would be totally ruined, compared to my actual daily work.

mooreds 7y ago
I once interviewed in a code base I didn't know, using a language I didn't know (kotlin, so close to a language I do know, Java), in an editor I didn't know. I didn't get the job, but I don't believe it was because of my performance on the coding portion of the application (based on inference). But that was an error on my part. They offered to let me code a different problem on my own machine and I didn't take advantage, having a bit of overconfidence in my ability to pick up things quickly. But I prefer to let applicants pick whatever language (within limits) and editor/ide they want for our current hiring process. It's much more about how they solve a problem and navigate their tools (because that's an indicator too) than how they can use my stack.
- trickstra 7y ago
  Exactly! How is it relevant to the job if the applicant is able to adapt to a new editor and new keyboard quickly? Even with a new computer, they will set it up once and then never do it again. Let the programmer chose whatever language, whatever carefully crafted settings in IDE that make them comfortable, to solve the problem effectively, because that's what matters. Problem solving is influenced heavily by these seemingly irrelevant details. It's like inspiration, you need a clear mind for that.
scarface74 7y ago
I’m glad one of my interviewers didn’t feel that way. I was about to start a pair programming session and they had an ergonomic split keyboard for me to use. I just asked for a regular keyboard, I purposefully didn’t explain why just to see what they would say. They had no problem finding me one. After they gave me the keyboard, I told them that I can only type with one hand for physical reasons.

wccrawford 7y ago

While I wouldn't consider that a "correct answer", I'd be willing to be patient and let them think about it for a minute or 2. I may look annoyed, or even pull out my phone and start browsing news, but it's not actually taking points away from them until it drags on too long. Of course, there's not really a way to tell in advance if you get an interviewer like me, or a jerk that insists you know everything off the top of your head.

bostik 7y ago
> * I may look annoyed, or even pull out my phone and start browsing news* If I, as an interviewer, ever did that I would: a) expect the candidate to walk out, and b) get told off by pretty much everyone in the company. Deservedly. I really cannot think of a ruder way to express "you do not matter" sentiment than completely ignoring the candidate and flip through random stuff on my phone - while conducting an interview.

hjk05 7y ago

Well of cause you can think quietly about it, but you in an interview situation so you need to communicate that’s what your doing. Literally just saying “hmm, that should not happen, let me think about what’s going on” is all it takes.

yani 7y ago

I was interviewing a guy for IT position 6 years ago. After one of the questions, he went silent for a long period of time. It has not happened to me before. I did not think for a moment about interrupting him, it was obvious he is thinking how to approach the problem or his answer. Interviewing people requires patience, cut down on caffeine before an interview

fit2rule 7y ago

When I interview people, and they get stuck on a programming problem like this, I tell them "it is completely acceptable for you to show me your Google fu to overcome this problem". Google-fu is just as important a skill as knowing how to exit vi.

thiht 7y ago
What's a fu?
- krapp 7y ago
  It's like "kung fu" but for Google (or whatever). It's meant to imply mastery of some technique.
- bmn__ 7y ago
  http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/F/suffix-fu.html http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/F/suffix-fu.html

mcherm 7y ago

Actually, in an interview situation, "Let me think about that for a minute." followed by 120 seconds of silence, followed by a solid answer is a GREAT response. That's different from when the candidate is asked a question and they literally just become silent, with a "deer in the headlights" expression.

GoToRO 7y ago
Usually when you ask for a minute the guy says yes and then just continues rambling...