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I was with him until the middle. Lack of inter-generational knowledge transfer doesn't cut it. Most of the people who rolled this stuff are still alive. And

I was with him until the middle. Lack of inter-generational knowledge transfer doesn't cut it. Most of the people who rolled this stuff are still alive. And as for the whipper-snappers: people don't get very far writing programming languages/video games/operating systems without knowing their stuff. The real boogeyman is feature combinatorics. When making a tightly-integrated product (which people tend to expect these days), adding "just" one new feature (when you already have 100 of them) means touching several (if not all 100) things. Take OpenBSD for example: When you have a volunteer project by nerds for nerds, prioritizing getting it right (over having the fastest benchmark or feature-parity with X) is still manageable. Bring that into a market scenario (where buyers have a vague to non-existent understanding of what they're even buying), and we get what we get. Software companies live and die by benchmark and feature parity, and as long as it crashes and frustrates less than the other guy's product, the cash will keep coming in.

houseinthewoods 7y ago
heh thx for editing out the weird cynical part ;) moved from phone to computer to argue but it was too late
- jstewartmobile 7y ago
  My bad
microcolonel 7y ago
I tend to agree that OpenBSD is hitting the spot a lot better, but the problem I have is that there's not enough momentum that it keeps up with hardware releases. They had been maintaining kernel drivers for AMD GPUs for a while, but it seems they stopped updating regularly. I now own no hardware from the last decade that OpenBSD can get accelerated graphics on, and I need accelerated graphics to power the displays that allow me to be productive (by showing me enough information at once that I can understand what I'm doing). I was having a conversation with somebody the other day about a privacy concern they were addressing, where a company was offering to monitor cell signals for some retail analytics purpose; and it was genuinely surprising to them that mobile phones broadcast and otherwise leak information that can be used to fingerprint the device. I think it's rather shocking the amount of ignorance people allow themselves to have when it comes to things like this. Furthermore, the way she was talking about it, it seems she thought it was the responsibility of basically anyone but the owners of these devices to consider things like this, or even ask the questions that would tell you something like this exists.
TeMPOraL 7y ago
> When making a tightly-integrated product (which people tend to expect these days) Do they? It was my impression that the recent evolution of user-facing software (i.e. the web, mostly) was about less integation due to reduced scope and capabilities of any single piece of software. > adding "just" one new feature (when you already have 100 of them) means touching several (if not all 100) things. This sounds true on first impression, but I'm not sure how true it really is. Consider that I could start rewriting this as "adding 'just' one new program when you already have 100 of them installed on your computer"... and it doesn't make sense anymore. A feature to a program is like a program to OS, and yet most software doesn't involve extensive use, or changes, of the operating system. The most complex and feature-packed software I've seen (e.g. 3D modelling tools, Emacs, or hell, Windows or Linux) doesn't trigger combinatorial explosion; every new feature is developed almost in isolation from all others, and yet tight integration is achieved.
- z3t4 7y ago
  Programs can often be extended with new features using the plugin pattern.
  - pixl97 7y ago
    And plugins can include logic that reacts in completely unexpected ways with existing plugins. Testing all possible scenarios can be near impossible.
    - majkinetor 7y ago
      And this is actually more rule then exception - once you have more then 2 plugins, the chance of plugins colliding or not allowing updates of the main software in the future are more or less norm. Plugin minimization is mandatory IMO.
      - z3t4 7y ago
        Plugins should not depend on other plugins. Sometimes you have to move functionality to core.
std_throwaway 7y ago
> Lack of inter-generational knowledge transfer doesn't cut it. Most of the people who rolled this stuff are still alive. I think he means generations in terms of the workplace/politics where you can have a generation change every few years. Meaning that most old guys go and new guys come. Technically you could ask the old guys because most are still alive but it doesn't happen for a lot of different reasons.

houseinthewoods 7y ago

heh thx for editing out the weird cynical part ;) moved from phone to computer to argue but it was too late

jstewartmobile 7y ago
My bad

microcolonel 7y ago

I tend to agree that OpenBSD is hitting the spot a lot better, but the problem I have is that there's not enough momentum that it keeps up with hardware releases. They had been maintaining kernel drivers for AMD GPUs for a while, but it seems they stopped updating regularly. I now own no hardware from the last decade that OpenBSD can get accelerated graphics on, and I need accelerated graphics to power the displays that allow me to be productive (by showing me enough information at once that I can understand what I'm doing). I was having a conversation with somebody the other day about a privacy concern they were addressing, where a company was offering to monitor cell signals for some retail analytics purpose; and it was genuinely surprising to them that mobile phones broadcast and otherwise leak information that can be used to fingerprint the device. I think it's rather shocking the amount of ignorance people allow themselves to have when it comes to things like this. Furthermore, the way she was talking about it, it seems she thought it was the responsibility of basically anyone but the owners of these devices to consider things like this, or even ask the questions that would tell you something like this exists.

TeMPOraL 7y ago

> When making a tightly-integrated product (which people tend to expect these days) Do they? It was my impression that the recent evolution of user-facing software (i.e. the web, mostly) was about less integation due to reduced scope and capabilities of any single piece of software. > adding "just" one new feature (when you already have 100 of them) means touching several (if not all 100) things. This sounds true on first impression, but I'm not sure how true it really is. Consider that I could start rewriting this as "adding 'just' one new program when you already have 100 of them installed on your computer"... and it doesn't make sense anymore. A feature to a program is like a program to OS, and yet most software doesn't involve extensive use, or changes, of the operating system. The most complex and feature-packed software I've seen (e.g. 3D modelling tools, Emacs, or hell, Windows or Linux) doesn't trigger combinatorial explosion; every new feature is developed almost in isolation from all others, and yet tight integration is achieved.

z3t4 7y ago
Programs can often be extended with new features using the plugin pattern.
- pixl97 7y ago
  And plugins can include logic that reacts in completely unexpected ways with existing plugins. Testing all possible scenarios can be near impossible.
  - majkinetor 7y ago
    And this is actually more rule then exception - once you have more then 2 plugins, the chance of plugins colliding or not allowing updates of the main software in the future are more or less norm. Plugin minimization is mandatory IMO.
    - z3t4 7y ago
      Plugins should not depend on other plugins. Sometimes you have to move functionality to core.

std_throwaway 7y ago

> Lack of inter-generational knowledge transfer doesn't cut it. Most of the people who rolled this stuff are still alive. I think he means generations in terms of the workplace/politics where you can have a generation change every few years. Meaning that most old guys go and new guys come. Technically you could ask the old guys because most are still alive but it doesn't happen for a lot of different reasons.