7 ms·

This is bullshit. Don’t be a creep. Period, end of story. Hire and promote fairly. You won’t have a problem.

• yhoneycomb 7y ago
  I assume you're a woman?
  • itsaidpens 7y ago
    I’m a man who has enthusiastically managed, hired and promoted women for years.
    • nilkn 7y ago
      This is going to sound weird, but I think it makes sense: this would be a more compelling statement if instead you added that you’ve also given negative feedback to women, put women on PIPs, denied them promotions, or fired women for incompetence.
      • inferiorhuman 7y ago
        This is going to sound weird, but I think it makes sense: this would be a more compelling statement if instead you added that you’ve also given negative feedback to women, put women on PIPs, denied them promotions, or fired women for incompetence. It doesn't sound weird at all to me, but it is telling that you think the issue is women filing complaints for negative feedback versus women getting harassed in the workplace.
        • nilkn 7y ago
          I didn’t make any comparison or in any way imply either of these wasn’t an issue.
  • dang 7y ago
    Please don't personally accost someone like this on HN.
    • yhoneycomb 7y ago
      It was a question. Are you ok?
      • untog 7y ago
        Questions don't typically start with "I assume"
      • dang 7y ago
        You used a question mark, but it's not clear that you were asking a sincere question. Actually, the way you phrased it ("I assume") suggests otherwise. So do your ideologically charged comment elsewhere in the thread and the hostile "Are you ok" bit here. If someone wants to share that she's a woman, that's up to her. Abruptly challenging another user personally about that is usually a bad-faith move in online conversations—especially on a divisive topic like this one, where people are primed to post aggressively. Since you didn't explain why you were asking, all the reader can do is pattern-match, and we know how comments like that tend to pattern-match in flamewars. If you meant it in good faith, there's a simple fix: include enough information for the reader—not to mention the person you're asking—to be able to feel that.
        • yhoneycomb 7y ago
          So you’re accusing me of something I didn’t intend just because I didn’t ask my question in the way you would have liked. See how easily things can get misconstrued? Maybe that’s why men are less willing to mentor women.
          • dang 7y ago
            I've been careful not to accuse you. That's why I said "it's not clear", "suggests", "usually", "prone", "enough information", "pattern match", "good faith", and "simple fix". If you're participating in this thread in good faith, what could be easier to make clear? Unfortunately, some internet commenters specialize in posting aggressively while staying inside the line of plausible deniability. That's abuse, so moderators have to do something—but moderation is guesswork, and there's no way to guess perfectly. If I guessed wrong, I'll be happy to correct the error. But if I guessed wrong, why do you up the ante with each reply? That doesn't help clear things up.
• geodel 7y ago
  Thank you for such reassuring message.
  • itsaidpens 7y ago
    It should be, honestly. The solution is simple to execute. DM me, not kidding, If you want some scenario coaching.
    • adminprof 7y ago
      I've mentored hundreds of people. As someone who does not think of themselves as a creep, I've had many scenarios where a misinterpretation could make the mentee/employee/student think I was a creep even if I had good intentions. For many of those people, it was the first time they met me so it was probably not clear to them immediately whether I was being creepy or just had an awkward moment. So I think real life is not so straightforward sometimes. Maybe some specific examples would help. Somebody came in to ask for advice about whether they should be more aggressive in some work situation. I thought about it and remember some advice that a colleague had applied effectively. The advice was widely praised. I said the same advice word-by-word, but after saying it, realized that this advice only works when said by a woman to another woman (the advice itself was something about being empowered as a woman). It sounded a bit awkward / patronizing when coming from me. This person then later complained to another person that I gave a sexist suggestion. Nothing happened of it, but it was really uncomfortable and had they spread it on social media in a bad light, that would have hurt my reputation. In another case, a subordinate and I were already at slightly adversarial terms (a bit of loss in trust, but nothing too serious at that time). I could tell they were attentively looking to find what I was saying to be erroneous. I had to be particularly careful in those meetings, and had to constantly respond to accusations like "why did you agree with [male]'s idea when I had proposed the same idea a month ago and you rejected it" (when it was obviously a more complex situation and the context for the proposed idea were different). But had I been a bit more casual in our meetings, I am pretty sure she would have found something to complain about loudly. Basically, "don't be a creep" is not enough and oversimplifies things. You can not be a creep, yet still get into a bad situation if someone else interprets you as a creep, especially in a situation where the relationship is not a strong trusted one. You often have to meet and advise people who don't know your intentions, and an awkward mis-step can be problematic. That's just the unfortunate reality.
• illumin8 7y ago
  Seriously, don't be a dick is pretty easy to understand. I've met so many brilliant female engineers that I can't imagine what toxic bullshit causes people to think this way.
  • Itsdijital 7y ago
    That's not the issue and not the cause of this. The problem is the extreme power imbalance, where any woman you interact with can snap her fingers and destroy your life/career. Let me put it this way: It's incredibly rare that a bear attacks a human. But pretty much everyone will still avoid a bear if they can. This has nothing to do with "don't piss off the bear and you'll be fine" and everything to do with "if that bear does decide to attack you, you are completely defenseless".
    • didibus 7y ago
      How would you deal with real cases of sexual harassment of women then? When it comes to that, it seems to be that the statistics show that real sexual harassment happens more often then the scenario you are describing. How would you handle this, so it is reduced or eliminated? This was the original power imbalance, and it can't be forgotten. Generally a pendulum swings many time before finding equilibrium, I think we're just in that process right now.
      • Itsdijital 7y ago
        I don't have an answer, because the alternative is shitty men taking advantage of the situation and preying on women, and in turn women avoiding men. Don't mistake my comment as calling woman liars or defending sexual misconduct on men's part. I'm simply analyzing the rational for men not wanting to be alone with women in the work place.
        • didibus 7y ago
          If you analyze it a bit more, you don't find it irrational though? What would be the motivation of a woman to falsify accusations of someone mentoring her? How often does this actually happen? Wouldn't accusing someone also jeopardize her career prospect? Etc. I fully understand the response of men not wanting to be alone with women in the workplace, but I can't agree that it's rationale, reasonable and justified. We're all human, and unreasonable feelings of fears and worries is something we all suffer from. That said, the current feelings seem mostly irrational to me, and appear to be put forward by fear mongers. I am very much in agreement that all are innocent until proven guilty, that the public opinion shouldn't be used as a court of law, and that due process must be followed and respected. That said, I'm still happily mentoring women, and respectfully engaging them at work, and I won't let myself fall prey to these irrational fears.
• coconut_crab 7y ago
  Yep, I don't see why is this a problem, just act professionally, don't be a creep. I have mentored many programmers, both male and female and i have zero problems with either. There are some subtleties in dealing with the fairer sex such as different kind of encouragement, read between the line when they say they are tired, making sure that their understanding is correct etc... but generally it's the same for both sexes: respect them and their personal space.
  • WillPostForFood 7y ago
    There are some subtleties in dealing with the fairer sex such as different kind of encouragement, read between the line when they say they are tired, making sure that their understanding is correct etc... That kind of generalization is exactly what can torpedo your career. Try putting those thoughts about the fairer sex in a memo or blog post and see what response you get.
    • coconut_crab 7y ago
      Just an example,if a male coworker said he is tired and he needs to take a leave, I can ask what's wrong and arrange for longer leave if needed. For the other sex, better ask no questions. But then I live in Asia, things might be different than in America/Europe.
    • vfulco2 7y ago
      Wouldn't the use of "fairer sex" get you demoted?
      • coconut_crab 7y ago
        Maybe, but English is not my native language so it doesn't matter here. Fun fact: The word for 'woman' in my country is derived from '婦' - 女 (“woman”) + 帚 (“broom”), so even calling them that way is kinda male chauvinist already.
      • 0815test 7y ago
        Given that our shared culture seems quite committed to labeling all men as "unfair", I'd think that the converse description "the fairer sex" is only... well, fair, y'know.
• WillPostForFood 7y ago
  It didn't say they were uncomfortable hiring or promoting women, it said mentoring which implies a more personal relationship. Specific example from the article, which doesn't seem like bullshit: nine times more likely to be hesitant to travel with a junior woman for work than a junior man, and six times more likely to be hesitant to have a work dinner with a junior woman than a junior man. This is, unfortunately, a rational response to the current climate.
  • mjevans 7y ago
    Let's do a simple test and reverse the roles. Yup, it's still rational in that respect too; this sucks and the way to fix it seems to be at the organizational level. Make it not one on one meetings, and make it "public" record (transparent), and make the support systems for reporting abuse in either direction act on that public record.
  • untog 7y ago
    Why is it a rational response? I've travelled with female co-workers before, it's not as if the company made us share a bed. We were just two people travelling. I don't really understand how the "current climate" would make me rethink that.
    • WillPostForFood 7y ago
      Because there is a much greater surface area for misunderstanding when you are travelling with someone. E.g, I ask you to drop off my laptop at my office (no misunderstanding), I ask you to drop off my laptop at my hotel room (risk of misunderstanding).
    • briandear 7y ago
      Can you prove you didn’t proposition her during the trip? Remember, she doesn’t have to prove anything to be taken seriously. You, however, have to prove a negative and that’s very hard to do.
      • untog 7y ago
• downandout 7y ago
  I think the point is that you may indeed have a problem, despite your best intentions. Nobody knows what will offend or make another person uncomfortable these days. Sure, there are standard things that everyone agrees is wrong. But entirely innocent conduct can be misinterpreted, people project their own biases and assumptions into those interpretations, etc. In the MeToo era, that can be enough to destroy a career.
  • sfink 7y ago
    All true. It sucks. Another thing that sucks is losing your job and even your career because you rejected your boss's advances.
• briandear 7y ago
  So there haven’t been false accusations? Women have never threatened superiors with unmerited claims? Given the potential for a single false claim to destroy a career, the prudent thing is to avoid situations where such claims could even be plausible. There are more than a few stories of people using false sexual harassment claims to win settlements from companies. Just an accusation can result in huge legal bills, a loss of reputation and other consequences. https://veterinarybusinessadvisors.com/guilty-until-proven-innocent-what-if-you-are-falsely-accused-of-sexual-harassment/ https://veterinarybusinessadvisors.com/guilty-until-proven-i... Here’s an example of how delicate this stuff can be: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/a-colleague-threatens-a-false-harassment-complaint-what-to-do/2019/01/25/3a63b86c-1ff1-11e9-8e21-59a09ff1e2a1_story.html?utm_term=.8c759dbf0a45 https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/a-colleague-threaten... If you are a manager or executive, it’s a real risk that you’ll get dragged through the mud by a false accusation. In a world we’re he-said she-said is biased towards “believing women,” it would be prudent to avoid close professional relationships with women. Literally decades later it can come back to bite you. Remember that while the man may “hire and promote fairly,” not all people necessarily act honestly and “fairly” can be very subjective. Just an accusation can torpedo a career. Acting like “it’s bullshit” is to ignore the litigious society in which we operate.
  • didibus 7y ago
    It is complicated for sure. I think though, overall, there is over exageration of the risk. What's the probability? If it's so low you're more likely to die in the next 30 days then have it happen to you for example, then it's pretty irrational of a response from the managers surveyed. Now, I don't know the statistics, I think we need some to know if we're being absurd and irrationally afraid or not. Similarly, we also need to remember the flip side, many of these interactions used too and still are real risks to women as they can get harassed and abused as well. Again, statistics might help. Either statistic is hard to find though, because ground truth is difficult and most cases don't necessarily get recorded or even mentioned. Hopefully, we slowly figure all this out and how to balance it all.