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60% of male managers now say they're uncomfortable mentoring women

97 points by bubmiw 7y ago

RickSanchez2600 7y ago
Well it is when a woman can file fake sexual harassment claims because she doesn't like you or doesn't like your management/criticism of her. Ask why male teachers aren't as common in high schools and public schools as they used to be. It is easy to accuse them of sexual harassment when the women get low grades from the teacher. Not all sexual harassment claims are false, but it can be used as a weapon against male managers.
- itsaidpens 7y ago
  Dude, this is so rare. Don’t spew some red-pill bullshit.
  - jrockway 7y ago
    I think there's some fear in the back of everyone's mind, because they hear about their friend/coworker being accused of harassment, and they can't believe that they're that type of person. But many people are. That's the reality. All we can do is try and change the reality.
    - Itsdijital 7y ago
      There are also many people who will fabricate a story or stretch the truth for their own gain. There isn't a clear cut answer to this problem.
- advisedwang 7y ago
  #NotAllManager amirite?
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't take HN threads further into generic gender flamewar, or any flamewar. A comment like this is only going to lead to worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
itsaidpens 7y ago
This is bullshit. Don’t be a creep. Period, end of story. Hire and promote fairly. You won’t have a problem.
- yhoneycomb 7y ago
  I assume you're a woman?
  - itsaidpens 7y ago
    I’m a man who has enthusiastically managed, hired and promoted women for years.
    - nilkn 7y ago
      This is going to sound weird, but I think it makes sense: this would be a more compelling statement if instead you added that you’ve also given negative feedback to women, put women on PIPs, denied them promotions, or fired women for incompetence.
      - inferiorhuman 7y ago
        This is going to sound weird, but I think it makes sense: this would be a more compelling statement if instead you added that you’ve also given negative feedback to women, put women on PIPs, denied them promotions, or fired women for incompetence. It doesn't sound weird at all to me, but it is telling that you think the issue is women filing complaints for negative feedback versus women getting harassed in the workplace.
        nilkn 7y ago
        I didn’t make any comparison or in any way imply either of these wasn’t an issue.
  - dang 7y ago
    Please don't personally accost someone like this on HN.
benatkin 7y ago
It seems like the path forward is clear. Sandberg: > "The thing is, it's not enough," she says. "It's really important to not harass anyone, but that's pretty basic. We also need to not be ignored." There's no need to walk back any part of MeToo to solve this problem, just to keep pushing forward.
- paganel 7y ago
  Why would a billionaire business person feel “ignored”? Why does that person feel the need to speak for other persons whose experiences are most probably alien to her?
  - yhoneycomb 7y ago
    This reminds me of all the rich, white-passing Hispanics at my med school that join all the minority clubs just to virtue signal. Ugh.
  - benatkin 7y ago
    The more people who hear your message, the more people can actively ignore your message. While her chances of being ignored by everyone go down, the number of people who will ignore her goes up.
- educationdata 7y ago
  No. Real world is not that simple. Certain things are only considered harass between man and woman, but not between same sex. For example, asking to meet (drink, sports, etc.) after work. So there's a choice between either "ignore" or "harass". Yes, you don't have to do these, but some people just like buddyhood kind of binding more than others.
  - benatkin 7y ago
    That's a problem for the managers to solve, and they can solve it by reducing the number of business dinners they do with men, if they can't figure out a good way to do business dinners with women. The work hours and the options for dining near the office might mean that it's too difficult to have a work dinner that isn't too cozy, and if it is, so be it. It's entirely their responsibility to have management practices that aren't sexist.
Lendal 7y ago
So 60% of male managers admit they aren't good managers. Good. Step aside then, and let others more capable than you have a chance to prove themselves.
- ecwilson 7y ago
  Male manager here. This is not at all hard to believe.
jonnybgood 7y ago
A female coworker of mine just recently shared with me that she was treated like this in her previous workplace. She felt alienated and as if she was some kind of harlot ready to ruin the lives of her male coworkers. She’s happy to not be in that workplace anymore.
- mclightning 7y ago
  > harlot, that's the first time I see that used in a sentence outside of dictionary :D (not a native eng speaker)
16e6471bd4b781 7y ago
Based on the tenor this has already taken, I’m replying with a throwaway. I have changed my behavior around women subordinates. It sucks, but that’s the reality. At this point I’m as concerned with the appearance of impropriety as I am false accusations. I know who I am and I trust myself. Everyone else? Not so much anymore.
- ianai 7y ago
  Changed how?
juanbyrge 7y ago
With all the outrage from women in Silicon Valley (I.e. walkouts) I’d be uncomfortable as well. If you inadvertently offend a women and they complain, you are more likely to get fired, no questions asked.
- ajross 7y ago
  Sorry, who got fired because of an offended woman?
  - avinium 7y ago
    James Damore, for one..
    - TylerE 7y ago
      Sounds more like being fired for being a colossal asshole that no one wanted to work with.
    - atdt 7y ago
      Yes, no one was more surprised than James Damore when his memo, Google's Ideological Echo Chamber, provoked the ire of his coworkers.
    - NotSammyHagar 7y ago
      I think he got fired because he called the entire category of female employees generally poor performers and less capable because they were not men and also questioned hiring practices to encourage hiring them. Is it okay if you pick other groups and claim this about them? Black people, Jewish, whatever. You need to treat people as individuals.
      - avinium 7y ago
        Well, I disagree with that characterisation of the affair, but ultimately it’s irrelevant. He was literally fired for making people (in this case, women) uncomfortable. Doesn’t matter whether you agree or disagree with the firing, but that was unquestionably the reason.
walru 7y ago
Regardless of skill or experience, they seem to be getting promoted over other more qualified individuals, anyway. At least that's what I've noticed in my places of work over the last four years. I'd hate to tell you how many of those places went under as it's all anecdotal. I am however getting a little put out by people around me not getting promoted on merit, but on optics.
- neuronexmachina 7y ago
  > Regardless of skill or experience, they seem to be getting promoted over other more qualified individuals, anyway Are you referring to 60% of male managers, or women they mentor?
  - walru 7y ago
    I'm saying it doesn't seem to matter if they've been mentored or have the proper level of skill to perform the tasks. That said, why should someone more senior train someone to take a job they themselves should be getting?
- unknownkadath 7y ago
  When an incompetent man gets promoted it's all "Peter Principle, brogrammer, Dilbert joke, hurr durr." When an incompetent woman gets promoted, it's because she's a woman.
  - walru 7y ago
    Parden? I'm talking about people getting promoted into positions they aren't qualified for and sinking companies. I really don't care about your sex, race or who you like to invite into bed. I'd rather be on a winning team.
    - unknownkadath 7y ago
      Maybe a little data might help your point be taken more seriously. All kinds of idiots get promoted above their capacities. Women aren't special in that regard.
tehjoker 7y ago
Alternative headline: 60% of males rethinking how they interact with women after decades because protests broke through and raised consciousness. Change isn't comfortable, it's not supposed to be. It's only supposed to be just. This goes for technical skills and moral ones too. You feel bad until you're better.
atdt 7y ago
Sexual harassment and gender-based discrimination are real and urgent issues, but the path forward will not be lit by Facebook COO Cheryl Sandberg and SurveyMonkey marketing material. She has no moral credibility.
6Wc1p3KH 7y ago
Throwaway for obvious reasons. I'm not a manager, but I eat lunch/dinner one on one with men far more than I eat lunch/dinner with women, and it's because I try not to be a creep. I try to manage bias and I try to be aware of when I might be doing something for a coworker just because she's female and pretty, and unfortunately that means that when it is actually genuinely appropriate to grab dinner together and talk about our work I second-guess myself. When it does happen, it's usually a more senior coworker taking the initiative first. No idea how to stop doing it other than time and experience. If you've got tips, throw them out there.
- kthejoker2 7y ago
  Don't make it a dinner or drinks? Just meet and discuss work 1 on 1. That's the surest way to communicate the intentions of the meeting. Also: do you offer to mentor the "not pretty" females? That statement alone in your post shows a remarkable immaturity in you about women in the workplace.
  - 6Wc1p3KH 7y ago
    > Don't make it a dinner or drinks? Just meet and discuss work 1 on 1. That's the surest way to communicate the intentions of the meeting. The problem here is non-formal social opportunities that aren't meetings and don't take the place of meetings. If there's solid work-related content to discuss then of course you can meet with someone and discuss it, but that's not the same as grabbing dinner with someone when you're both working late and chattering about career-related stuff. > Also: do you offer to mentor the "not pretty" females? That statement alone in your post shows a remarkable immaturity in you about women in the workplace. Of course I do, I mentor anyone who asks to be mentored. Formal work relationships like mentoring aren't a problem because they're explicitly endorsed by the company and usually facilitated by a manager or initiated by the mentee. I worry that I'm being too condescending as a mentor because of implicit bias, or overcompensating in the direction of not giving enough help, but that's a different problem. "Am I doing this because she's pretty?" is relevant to the conversation about this article because creepy behavior by men who are attracted to women seems to be a core complaint of professional women and a part of the #MeToo movement, and men are asked to be aware of their own biases and motivations and actions to try to fix this.
shakna 7y ago
I can understand the reluctance, up to a point. I'm male, I've been accused of sexual abuse, and it was thrown out because it became exceedingly clear that it never happened. That was extremely unpleasant to go through, and I'd rather never go through it again. However, it hasn't had an ongoing effect on my relationships with women, just the one woman. I'm still more than happy to work with my coworkers regardless of their sex, and I'm more than happy to guide anyone who happens to fall under my leadership. Anybody accused is first judged by the audience. A certain amount of guilt is assumed. That you let yourself into a potentially compromising situation, or you sought out the situation. And I imagine the higher you are up a managerial chain, the higher the stakes are when you get accused. There is a human cost, even if "nothing comes of it". I imagine many of these managers are terrified of the ordeal, of lawyers, they don't know if the company will support them until a judgement is made or kick them to the curb. Of the effect it may have on their family, where they might already have strained relationships with their spouses. They don't want to potentially risk it, because the power dynamics at play are not in their favour from the outset. The system is biased to find fault, rather than first determine if there was fault. At the same time, we can't cut the authority of the system in any way - the people it protects, who genuinely need protection, often are already in a power imbalance of their own. The fears are justified to an extent, but the simple truth it comes down to is... You're a manager. It is your responsibility to be responsible for those under you. If you can't be, then perhaps a management position is not appropriate for you. Perhaps you need to learn to thrive in a different role. Harsh, certainly, but as the environment stands, ignoring those under your care will only help to promote an environment where women are once again second-class citizens.
- roenxi 7y ago
  > The fears are justified to an extent, but the simple truth it comes down to is... You're a manager. It is your responsibility to be responsible for those under you. A lot of people aren't squeaky clean paragons of virtue in everything they do in combination with being secure and confident in their position in the corporate hierarchy. So your suggestion seems to be boiling down to 'figure it out'. What is your fallback if the required behaviors are complicated or hard to figure out? Men-women relationships are fundamentally asymmetrical and unbalanced, and it is the case that most people are poor communicators. There is an underlying theme to these conversations that everyone should have a basic expectation that they can come to work and enjoy a safe, respectful work environment. That applies to managers just as much as subordinates - if companies are going to act on accusations then they need very clear policy on how much evidence is needed to put a manager's career at risk. Unless the state of the field is very clear, it isn't reasonable to tell the managers that their role is to put themselves at risk professionally and work it out as they go. The conversation needs to be more detailed about what, exactly, the managers are expected to do outside the formal frameworks and what level of evidence is needed for them to get into trouble.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
threatofrain 7y ago
It's Vice President Michael Pence's personal policy to never meet 1 on 1 with a woman unless it's with his wife.
- faissaloo 7y ago
  He has the right idea.
lostmymind66 7y ago
This is not surprising. We are in a hyper-sensitive society now where many people are accused and lose their entire career and possibly marriage through the court of public opinion. As a result, it would be smart of most men in these positions to either not mentor at all or always have someone else in the room. I wouldn't be surprised if companies started having everything recorded at some point. The real problem is that false accusers won't face many repercussions compared to the accused. Some men accused are even found to have done nothing and it doesn't matter. People still believe they did something.
- dev_dull 7y ago
  > I wouldn't be surprised if companies started having everything recorded at some point. More and more I’m seeing managers have their 1:1s in public areas, such as cafeterias or outdoor seating.
  - vidanay 7y ago
    Where everyone has their noise cancelling headphones on. Sure, it stops the vast majority of physical possibilities, but doesn't do much for verbal.
anon77887 7y ago
I'm still getting over a situation which occurred a month ago, and as it stands I will probably have to leave my job. I hired a female contractor engineer (in the UK contractors are paid daily, supposed to be easy to hire/fire), my manager is also female. 2 weeks after the engineer started, I knew she wouldn't be able to stay in the team because her work was not good (she was spending a lot of time chatting around, and not producing good quality code). Everybody complains to me that my engineer is not performing well, but my manager makes me keep her. A month later my manager asks for a meeting with me, and says that my contractor has been complaining about micro-management, and that it can be seen as bullying or harassment. Because of that I leave for 2 weeks, and it takes another month to get rid of the contractor. Learnings: I actually handled the situation very well, but I suffered a lot from the way my manager handled the situation. I have myself managed, hired and fired dozens of people in my career. Yet as soon as it was a girl, the rules of the game completely changed, and it didn't matter who was right or wrong. No matter how much I want to be inclusive and how much I want to give equal rights to everybody, other people (and even females) don't see it that way, and still want to make a distinction between sexes.
- thecolorblue 7y ago
  Referring to her as a girl is not helping your case.
  - laresistance 7y ago
    What is the opposite of a guy, then?
    - true_religion 7y ago
      A gal actually. But considering the nature of using dimunitive forms with regards to women, I would just call her a woman unless we are in very casual company.
dvfjsdhgfv 7y ago
It's because if you get burnt once, you'll always be on guard. It takes one abuser to change the lives of several people at once.
sadness2 7y ago
What a surprise! Nerds don't know how to talk to girls.
- numair 7y ago
  “Nerd” isn’t a gender-specific condition. Never has been, and never should be. [Disclaimer: I am not a fan of the ongoing campaign to attach a largely consumerist “nerd” culture to basic technical competence. The two have little to do with each other.]
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't do this here.
sfink 7y ago
The study is fine. It's reporting some statistics that I find believable. Statistics on men's worries, mind, not on occurrences of actual harm. The reactions I'm seeing are... not helpful for the most part. One reaction is that this is a horrible thing because it is unfair. I agree that it is an unfortunate part of our current reality. So is the possibility of being forced into uncomfortable situations, or more generally, being sexually harassed when you're a blameless woman in the workplace. I don't see a way of resolving that unfairness without any negative impact on blameless men. We can certainly try to work together in good faith to minimize negative impact while creating positive change. But wailing and moaning about the balance of power tipping slightly away from us (I'm a white male) is not acting in good faith. It's just plain entitlement. The #metoo movement's direct impact puts me at more risk than before. And I've taken advantage of my cultural immunity more than once in my life. I'm not proud of some things in my past, and I'm not free from the possibility of doing more things in the future. I have problematic biases and attitudes. But I'd rather live in, and have my kids grow up in, the sort of world that #metoo is leading us towards than the world that (I hope) we're leaving behind. Besides, some of this abject fear over being accused of the things that we've actually done would be lessened if the patriarchal walls of silence and secrecy were torn down so we could all see what is actually happening in the world, rather than the whitewashed appearance of perfect honor and respect that we all pretend is real. I don't think my personal lapses would be judged too harshly if compared against reality. But they look pretty bad if compared to all the guys professing purity and innocence -- because we as a society have somehow fooled ourselves into believing them. 60% of male managers are nervous about mentoring women. What percentage of working women are nervous about what their male coworkers might do one at any point in the future? And fuck that, what percentage have already experienced worse than what a male manager might realistically experience from a complaint about his behavior in a 1-1? And don't bother pulling out the "but what if absolutely nothing happened but the woman accused him unfairly and he lost his job and wife and kids and had to live under a bridge until he killed himself??!" unless you have some solid evidence that this happens more often than women get raped by acquaintances. Or if you don't like that comparison, maybe look at the number of women who lose jobs or careers or get blacklisted as a result of someone else harassing them.
- samhain 7y ago
random123987 7y ago
That's funny how a comment thread in topics like this explodes into its own version of Me Too. The only "slight" difference is that MeToo talks about actual rape which happened, while this version is about "feeling uncomfortable while imagining things". Nevertheless, I do have a certain empathy for the people who talk about their fears here. I have mine too. Again there is this small difference: while you fear that a certain accusation(which happens how often?) can ruin your carrier, I have a fear that your fear can ruin my carrier with >60% chance. Without possibility for me to get accused explicitly, leaving me no chance to defend myself. While I'm taking a moment to feel your fears, can I ask you to do the same for mine?
SlipperySlope 7y ago
My father, a USA country lawyer in the 1950's, had a policy my mom made fun of. He never traveled alone with his secretary - a woman. Mom said it was only because of appearances - ha, ha. As an IT manager in the 1990s for a large electric utility, I was well trained in then-new sexual harassment policies - which did then, and still do make sense. But it was not until the #metoo movement, that I understood that my dad in the 1950's was simply doing the right thing because it was his good character. I deeply respect US VP Pence for being like my dad.
simonblack 7y ago
It's the same sort of problem with males not wishing to be classified as 'paedophiles' and children. Once upon a time, I would have tried to help distressed children. These days I walk straight past them. Let the next female do the consoling.
charliebrownau 7y ago
Suck shit you entitled cunts You demand "equality" but always expect special treatment because your female This is what happens when you REMOVE DUE PROCESS and Burden of proof Eat in the fucking mess you made

97 points by bubmiw 7y ago

Well it is when a woman can file fake sexual harassment claims because she doesn't like you or doesn't like your management/criticism of her. Ask why male teachers aren't as common in high schools and public schools as they used to be. It is easy to accuse them of sexual harassment when the women get low grades from the teacher. Not all sexual harassment claims are false, but it can be used as a weapon against male managers.

itsaidpens 7y ago
Dude, this is so rare. Don’t spew some red-pill bullshit.
- jrockway 7y ago
  I think there's some fear in the back of everyone's mind, because they hear about their friend/coworker being accused of harassment, and they can't believe that they're that type of person. But many people are. That's the reality. All we can do is try and change the reality.
  - Itsdijital 7y ago
    There are also many people who will fabricate a story or stretch the truth for their own gain. There isn't a clear cut answer to this problem.
advisedwang 7y ago
#NotAllManager amirite?
dang 7y ago
Please don't take HN threads further into generic gender flamewar, or any flamewar. A comment like this is only going to lead to worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

itsaidpens 7y ago

This is bullshit. Don’t be a creep. Period, end of story. Hire and promote fairly. You won’t have a problem.

yhoneycomb 7y ago
I assume you're a woman?
- itsaidpens 7y ago
  I’m a man who has enthusiastically managed, hired and promoted women for years.
  - nilkn 7y ago
    This is going to sound weird, but I think it makes sense: this would be a more compelling statement if instead you added that you’ve also given negative feedback to women, put women on PIPs, denied them promotions, or fired women for incompetence.
    - inferiorhuman 7y ago
      This is going to sound weird, but I think it makes sense: this would be a more compelling statement if instead you added that you’ve also given negative feedback to women, put women on PIPs, denied them promotions, or fired women for incompetence. It doesn't sound weird at all to me, but it is telling that you think the issue is women filing complaints for negative feedback versus women getting harassed in the workplace.
      - nilkn 7y ago
        I didn’t make any comparison or in any way imply either of these wasn’t an issue.
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't personally accost someone like this on HN.

benatkin 7y ago

It seems like the path forward is clear. Sandberg: > "The thing is, it's not enough," she says. "It's really important to not harass anyone, but that's pretty basic. We also need to not be ignored." There's no need to walk back any part of MeToo to solve this problem, just to keep pushing forward.

paganel 7y ago
Why would a billionaire business person feel “ignored”? Why does that person feel the need to speak for other persons whose experiences are most probably alien to her?
- yhoneycomb 7y ago
  This reminds me of all the rich, white-passing Hispanics at my med school that join all the minority clubs just to virtue signal. Ugh.
- benatkin 7y ago
  The more people who hear your message, the more people can actively ignore your message. While her chances of being ignored by everyone go down, the number of people who will ignore her goes up.
educationdata 7y ago
No. Real world is not that simple. Certain things are only considered harass between man and woman, but not between same sex. For example, asking to meet (drink, sports, etc.) after work. So there's a choice between either "ignore" or "harass". Yes, you don't have to do these, but some people just like buddyhood kind of binding more than others.
- benatkin 7y ago
  That's a problem for the managers to solve, and they can solve it by reducing the number of business dinners they do with men, if they can't figure out a good way to do business dinners with women. The work hours and the options for dining near the office might mean that it's too difficult to have a work dinner that isn't too cozy, and if it is, so be it. It's entirely their responsibility to have management practices that aren't sexist.

Lendal 7y ago

So 60% of male managers admit they aren't good managers. Good. Step aside then, and let others more capable than you have a chance to prove themselves.

ecwilson 7y ago
Male manager here. This is not at all hard to believe.

jonnybgood 7y ago

A female coworker of mine just recently shared with me that she was treated like this in her previous workplace. She felt alienated and as if she was some kind of harlot ready to ruin the lives of her male coworkers. She’s happy to not be in that workplace anymore.

mclightning 7y ago
> harlot, that's the first time I see that used in a sentence outside of dictionary :D (not a native eng speaker)

16e6471bd4b781 7y ago

Based on the tenor this has already taken, I’m replying with a throwaway. I have changed my behavior around women subordinates. It sucks, but that’s the reality. At this point I’m as concerned with the appearance of impropriety as I am false accusations. I know who I am and I trust myself. Everyone else? Not so much anymore.

ianai 7y ago
Changed how?

juanbyrge 7y ago

With all the outrage from women in Silicon Valley (I.e. walkouts) I’d be uncomfortable as well. If you inadvertently offend a women and they complain, you are more likely to get fired, no questions asked.

ajross 7y ago
Sorry, who got fired because of an offended woman?
- avinium 7y ago
  James Damore, for one..
  - TylerE 7y ago
    Sounds more like being fired for being a colossal asshole that no one wanted to work with.
  - atdt 7y ago
    Yes, no one was more surprised than James Damore when his memo, Google's Ideological Echo Chamber, provoked the ire of his coworkers.
  - NotSammyHagar 7y ago
    I think he got fired because he called the entire category of female employees generally poor performers and less capable because they were not men and also questioned hiring practices to encourage hiring them. Is it okay if you pick other groups and claim this about them? Black people, Jewish, whatever. You need to treat people as individuals.
    - avinium 7y ago
      Well, I disagree with that characterisation of the affair, but ultimately it’s irrelevant. He was literally fired for making people (in this case, women) uncomfortable. Doesn’t matter whether you agree or disagree with the firing, but that was unquestionably the reason.

walru 7y ago

Regardless of skill or experience, they seem to be getting promoted over other more qualified individuals, anyway. At least that's what I've noticed in my places of work over the last four years. I'd hate to tell you how many of those places went under as it's all anecdotal. I am however getting a little put out by people around me not getting promoted on merit, but on optics.

neuronexmachina 7y ago
> Regardless of skill or experience, they seem to be getting promoted over other more qualified individuals, anyway Are you referring to 60% of male managers, or women they mentor?
- walru 7y ago
  I'm saying it doesn't seem to matter if they've been mentored or have the proper level of skill to perform the tasks. That said, why should someone more senior train someone to take a job they themselves should be getting?
unknownkadath 7y ago
When an incompetent man gets promoted it's all "Peter Principle, brogrammer, Dilbert joke, hurr durr." When an incompetent woman gets promoted, it's because she's a woman.
- walru 7y ago
  Parden? I'm talking about people getting promoted into positions they aren't qualified for and sinking companies. I really don't care about your sex, race or who you like to invite into bed. I'd rather be on a winning team.
  - unknownkadath 7y ago
    Maybe a little data might help your point be taken more seriously. All kinds of idiots get promoted above their capacities. Women aren't special in that regard.

tehjoker 7y ago

Alternative headline: 60% of males rethinking how they interact with women after decades because protests broke through and raised consciousness. Change isn't comfortable, it's not supposed to be. It's only supposed to be just. This goes for technical skills and moral ones too. You feel bad until you're better.

atdt 7y ago

Sexual harassment and gender-based discrimination are real and urgent issues, but the path forward will not be lit by Facebook COO Cheryl Sandberg and SurveyMonkey marketing material. She has no moral credibility.

6Wc1p3KH 7y ago

Throwaway for obvious reasons. I'm not a manager, but I eat lunch/dinner one on one with men far more than I eat lunch/dinner with women, and it's because I try not to be a creep. I try to manage bias and I try to be aware of when I might be doing something for a coworker just because she's female and pretty, and unfortunately that means that when it is actually genuinely appropriate to grab dinner together and talk about our work I second-guess myself. When it does happen, it's usually a more senior coworker taking the initiative first. No idea how to stop doing it other than time and experience. If you've got tips, throw them out there.

kthejoker2 7y ago
Don't make it a dinner or drinks? Just meet and discuss work 1 on 1. That's the surest way to communicate the intentions of the meeting. Also: do you offer to mentor the "not pretty" females? That statement alone in your post shows a remarkable immaturity in you about women in the workplace.
- 6Wc1p3KH 7y ago
  > Don't make it a dinner or drinks? Just meet and discuss work 1 on 1. That's the surest way to communicate the intentions of the meeting. The problem here is non-formal social opportunities that aren't meetings and don't take the place of meetings. If there's solid work-related content to discuss then of course you can meet with someone and discuss it, but that's not the same as grabbing dinner with someone when you're both working late and chattering about career-related stuff. > Also: do you offer to mentor the "not pretty" females? That statement alone in your post shows a remarkable immaturity in you about women in the workplace. Of course I do, I mentor anyone who asks to be mentored. Formal work relationships like mentoring aren't a problem because they're explicitly endorsed by the company and usually facilitated by a manager or initiated by the mentee. I worry that I'm being too condescending as a mentor because of implicit bias, or overcompensating in the direction of not giving enough help, but that's a different problem. "Am I doing this because she's pretty?" is relevant to the conversation about this article because creepy behavior by men who are attracted to women seems to be a core complaint of professional women and a part of the #MeToo movement, and men are asked to be aware of their own biases and motivations and actions to try to fix this.

shakna 7y ago

I can understand the reluctance, up to a point. I'm male, I've been accused of sexual abuse, and it was thrown out because it became exceedingly clear that it never happened. That was extremely unpleasant to go through, and I'd rather never go through it again. However, it hasn't had an ongoing effect on my relationships with women, just the one woman. I'm still more than happy to work with my coworkers regardless of their sex, and I'm more than happy to guide anyone who happens to fall under my leadership. Anybody accused is first judged by the audience. A certain amount of guilt is assumed. That you let yourself into a potentially compromising situation, or you sought out the situation. And I imagine the higher you are up a managerial chain, the higher the stakes are when you get accused. There is a human cost, even if "nothing comes of it". I imagine many of these managers are terrified of the ordeal, of lawyers, they don't know if the company will support them until a judgement is made or kick them to the curb. Of the effect it may have on their family, where they might already have strained relationships with their spouses. They don't want to potentially risk it, because the power dynamics at play are not in their favour from the outset. The system is biased to find fault, rather than first determine if there was fault. At the same time, we can't cut the authority of the system in any way - the people it protects, who genuinely need protection, often are already in a power imbalance of their own. The fears are justified to an extent, but the simple truth it comes down to is... You're a manager. It is your responsibility to be responsible for those under you. If you can't be, then perhaps a management position is not appropriate for you. Perhaps you need to learn to thrive in a different role. Harsh, certainly, but as the environment stands, ignoring those under your care will only help to promote an environment where women are once again second-class citizens.

roenxi 7y ago
> The fears are justified to an extent, but the simple truth it comes down to is... You're a manager. It is your responsibility to be responsible for those under you. A lot of people aren't squeaky clean paragons of virtue in everything they do in combination with being secure and confident in their position in the corporate hierarchy. So your suggestion seems to be boiling down to 'figure it out'. What is your fallback if the required behaviors are complicated or hard to figure out? Men-women relationships are fundamentally asymmetrical and unbalanced, and it is the case that most people are poor communicators. There is an underlying theme to these conversations that everyone should have a basic expectation that they can come to work and enjoy a safe, respectful work environment. That applies to managers just as much as subordinates - if companies are going to act on accusations then they need very clear policy on how much evidence is needed to put a manager's career at risk. Unless the state of the field is very clear, it isn't reasonable to tell the managers that their role is to put themselves at risk professionally and work it out as they go. The conversation needs to be more detailed about what, exactly, the managers are expected to do outside the formal frameworks and what level of evidence is needed for them to get into trouble.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

threatofrain 7y ago

It's Vice President Michael Pence's personal policy to never meet 1 on 1 with a woman unless it's with his wife.

faissaloo 7y ago
He has the right idea.

lostmymind66 7y ago

This is not surprising. We are in a hyper-sensitive society now where many people are accused and lose their entire career and possibly marriage through the court of public opinion. As a result, it would be smart of most men in these positions to either not mentor at all or always have someone else in the room. I wouldn't be surprised if companies started having everything recorded at some point. The real problem is that false accusers won't face many repercussions compared to the accused. Some men accused are even found to have done nothing and it doesn't matter. People still believe they did something.

dev_dull 7y ago
> I wouldn't be surprised if companies started having everything recorded at some point. More and more I’m seeing managers have their 1:1s in public areas, such as cafeterias or outdoor seating.
- vidanay 7y ago
  Where everyone has their noise cancelling headphones on. Sure, it stops the vast majority of physical possibilities, but doesn't do much for verbal.

anon77887 7y ago

I'm still getting over a situation which occurred a month ago, and as it stands I will probably have to leave my job. I hired a female contractor engineer (in the UK contractors are paid daily, supposed to be easy to hire/fire), my manager is also female. 2 weeks after the engineer started, I knew she wouldn't be able to stay in the team because her work was not good (she was spending a lot of time chatting around, and not producing good quality code). Everybody complains to me that my engineer is not performing well, but my manager makes me keep her. A month later my manager asks for a meeting with me, and says that my contractor has been complaining about micro-management, and that it can be seen as bullying or harassment. Because of that I leave for 2 weeks, and it takes another month to get rid of the contractor. Learnings: I actually handled the situation very well, but I suffered a lot from the way my manager handled the situation. I have myself managed, hired and fired dozens of people in my career. Yet as soon as it was a girl, the rules of the game completely changed, and it didn't matter who was right or wrong. No matter how much I want to be inclusive and how much I want to give equal rights to everybody, other people (and even females) don't see it that way, and still want to make a distinction between sexes.

thecolorblue 7y ago
Referring to her as a girl is not helping your case.
- laresistance 7y ago
  What is the opposite of a guy, then?
  - true_religion 7y ago
    A gal actually. But considering the nature of using dimunitive forms with regards to women, I would just call her a woman unless we are in very casual company.

dvfjsdhgfv 7y ago

It's because if you get burnt once, you'll always be on guard. It takes one abuser to change the lives of several people at once.

sadness2 7y ago

What a surprise! Nerds don't know how to talk to girls.

numair 7y ago
“Nerd” isn’t a gender-specific condition. Never has been, and never should be. [Disclaimer: I am not a fan of the ongoing campaign to attach a largely consumerist “nerd” culture to basic technical competence. The two have little to do with each other.]
dang 7y ago
Please don't do this here.

sfink 7y ago

The study is fine. It's reporting some statistics that I find believable. Statistics on men's worries, mind, not on occurrences of actual harm. The reactions I'm seeing are... not helpful for the most part. One reaction is that this is a horrible thing because it is unfair. I agree that it is an unfortunate part of our current reality. So is the possibility of being forced into uncomfortable situations, or more generally, being sexually harassed when you're a blameless woman in the workplace. I don't see a way of resolving that unfairness without any negative impact on blameless men. We can certainly try to work together in good faith to minimize negative impact while creating positive change. But wailing and moaning about the balance of power tipping slightly away from us (I'm a white male) is not acting in good faith. It's just plain entitlement. The #metoo movement's direct impact puts me at more risk than before. And I've taken advantage of my cultural immunity more than once in my life. I'm not proud of some things in my past, and I'm not free from the possibility of doing more things in the future. I have problematic biases and attitudes. But I'd rather live in, and have my kids grow up in, the sort of world that #metoo is leading us towards than the world that (I hope) we're leaving behind. Besides, some of this abject fear over being accused of the things that we've actually done would be lessened if the patriarchal walls of silence and secrecy were torn down so we could all see what is actually happening in the world, rather than the whitewashed appearance of perfect honor and respect that we all pretend is real. I don't think my personal lapses would be judged too harshly if compared against reality. But they look pretty bad if compared to all the guys professing purity and innocence -- because we as a society have somehow fooled ourselves into believing them. 60% of male managers are nervous about mentoring women. What percentage of working women are nervous about what their male coworkers might do one at any point in the future? And fuck that, what percentage have already experienced worse than what a male manager might realistically experience from a complaint about his behavior in a 1-1? And don't bother pulling out the "but what if absolutely nothing happened but the woman accused him unfairly and he lost his job and wife and kids and had to live under a bridge until he killed himself??!" unless you have some solid evidence that this happens more often than women get raped by acquaintances. Or if you don't like that comparison, maybe look at the number of women who lose jobs or careers or get blacklisted as a result of someone else harassing them.

samhain 7y ago

random123987 7y ago

That's funny how a comment thread in topics like this explodes into its own version of Me Too. The only "slight" difference is that MeToo talks about actual rape which happened, while this version is about "feeling uncomfortable while imagining things". Nevertheless, I do have a certain empathy for the people who talk about their fears here. I have mine too. Again there is this small difference: while you fear that a certain accusation(which happens how often?) can ruin your carrier, I have a fear that your fear can ruin my carrier with >60% chance. Without possibility for me to get accused explicitly, leaving me no chance to defend myself. While I'm taking a moment to feel your fears, can I ask you to do the same for mine?

SlipperySlope 7y ago

My father, a USA country lawyer in the 1950's, had a policy my mom made fun of. He never traveled alone with his secretary - a woman. Mom said it was only because of appearances - ha, ha. As an IT manager in the 1990s for a large electric utility, I was well trained in then-new sexual harassment policies - which did then, and still do make sense. But it was not until the #metoo movement, that I understood that my dad in the 1950's was simply doing the right thing because it was his good character. I deeply respect US VP Pence for being like my dad.

simonblack 7y ago

It's the same sort of problem with males not wishing to be classified as 'paedophiles' and children. Once upon a time, I would have tried to help distressed children. These days I walk straight past them. Let the next female do the consoling.

charliebrownau 7y ago

Suck shit you entitled cunts You demand "equality" but always expect special treatment because your female This is what happens when you REMOVE DUE PROCESS and Burden of proof Eat in the fucking mess you made