3 ms·

Apache is being forced into a Java Fork

29 points by Garbage 16y ago

dreur 16y ago
Let put some facts right * Harmony is already a fork of java. But without the patent grant there is an unknown. * ASF wanted to pass the TCK for the patent grant and wanted Oracle to get rid of the field of use related to the tck. * Dalvik is using some of Harmony's code.
- windsurfer 16y ago
  Oracle promised that "any" project could get the patent grant as long as you comply with the TCK, but you can only run the TCK if you agree to a restrictive license? Sounds pretty fishy to me.
- oconnor0 16y ago
  Wasn't Dalvik found not to be using any of Harmony's code?
- shareme 16y ago
  Dalvik uses no Apache Harmony code, the libraries you write against do
- bad_user 16y ago
  You don't know what a fork is. In order for it to be a fork, something has to get forked from the parent ... like the source code, or the standard.
  - ollysb 16y ago
    In this case it would be a fork from the standard. Without allowing the TCK to be used against harmony the project must be considered a different standard that may will diverge in the future. Given the disappointment over closures and collection literals being delayed until java 8 there must be a temptation within the harmony camp to push ahead with these features and produce the version of java that many are clamoring for.
    - sigzero 16y ago
      It would be dead in the water if forked from the "standard". Java plays in the enterprise space and they are pretty particular about that sort of thing.
      - ollysb 16y ago
        I agree, the java community is generally extremely risk averse. This does however create a positive pressure towards such a fork. It seems very hypothetical at the moment but given that a fork were to receive backing from google I'm sure the enterprise community would be comfortable using it.
Autre 16y ago
Heading for JavaWars?
eddieplan9 16y ago
Please enlighten me as I am not very clear about the impact of this. Why there are people saying Java is on its death path because of this? The way I see it this only strengthens OpenJDK, which 99.9% of the applications are already using.
- kls 16y ago
  The TCK puts restrictions on mobile and I believe server run-times. So basically, it can only be used for desktop development or JVM lite if you will. Given that Java desktop was DOA you can see the usefulness of accepting those restrictions. Oracle as made no secret of their intent to monetize the JVM, there are a good deal of developers that believe that you don't pay to play for technology as low level as a language and run-time. So they are naturally concerned about the manner in which it will be monetized. Looking at the field of use restriction it can serve as an indicator as to where that plan to monetize it. Further with their suite against Google in relation to Android, I bleive that it paints a pretty big bulls eye on where they plan to monetize it. That being said, I have used Java since it was first placed on the net for download, I have seen it fall behind other languages and never once though it was going to die. It had too an extensive of an entrenchment and library available. I personally do believe that this was the death shot and when (I like to think) level headed guys like me, who have always said well it is good enough, sure it not shinny but good enough, start to think that it was the death shot, then it may very well be so. For me personally, if I where asked to throw my lot in with Apache or Oracle, it would be Apache, I use their technology every day, I do a project with Oracle technology (excluding the JVM now) maybe once a year. I think Oracle thinks the entrenchment is to great to overcome, for our sake I hope they are wrong. Fortunately for myself, I was an assembly developer before I was a C developer before I was a Java developer. So my exit, should it become untenable is easy enough given that I am a freelancer. I don't have a significant technology infrastructure investment like product people have. I truly feel for you guys that do, I would be really worried if I where in your shoes.
kls 16y ago
Eventually, the courts will get to decide how “open” an open-source project is when one company gets to call all the important shots. This is why I don't see a fork sustainable. Hostilities have already been mounted. I think Oracle taints the entire concept of using the JVM for anything as far as Apache is concerned. The only think I see now is the transition to separate and a completely independent technology. I wonder how difficult it would be to port the language and classes over to the LLVM, if their would even be legal ramifications in doing that and in the end if it is worth it, given that languages have progressed beyond Java now. Still maybe Apache would get something together that would allow it's libraries to operate on the LLVM while embracing a new language for future development. It's food for thought given that their is an imminent need to move beyond Oracle's reach.
- regularfry 16y ago
  > The only think I see now is the transition to separate and a completely independent technology. GCJ would be what you're looking for here, I think. The critical question would be how badly, if at all, GCJ would be affected by an Oracle militantly pursuing perceived patent violators. > languages have progressed beyond Java now It's not about the language. It's about the collosal amount of libraries in the ecosystem.
  - kls 16y ago
    I think and I could be totally wrong on this one, but I think that Oracle could construe the GCJ as appropriating their ideas and infringing on their patents. Moving to something like the LLVM would at least help distance Apache from that. My point as far as languages go was not that the libraries are not worth it but if you have to go so far as moving all of them over too a wholly separate run-time, is it even worth it to continue Java the language or would it be better to just adopt Scala or some other language that incorporates modern features and make it compatible with the ported library set. I was really pondering if you go all that way, is it worth it to just go that last 1/10 of a mile, instead of trying to bring Java the language into the modern age.
- po 16y ago
  I wonder how difficult it would be to port the language and classes over to the LLVM, if their would even be legal ramifications in doing that and in the end if it is worth it, given that languages have progressed beyond Java now. Isn't that basically what Google did with Android/Dalvik and are now being sued by Oracle for?
jp 16y ago
Harmony is an alternative to OpenJDK. There is no need to fork anything unless they want to merge in some UI code or something. Suing Apache seems very counterproductive imo. I wrote a text about this earlier today if someone is interested. Not published here since it is kinda rantish. http://labs.teppefall.com/2010/12/calling_oracles_sco_bluff.html http://labs.teppefall.com/2010/12/calling_oracles_sco_bluff....

29 points by Garbage 16y ago

dreur 16y ago

Let put some facts right * Harmony is already a fork of java. But without the patent grant there is an unknown. * ASF wanted to pass the TCK for the patent grant and wanted Oracle to get rid of the field of use related to the tck. * Dalvik is using some of Harmony's code.

windsurfer 16y ago
Oracle promised that "any" project could get the patent grant as long as you comply with the TCK, but you can only run the TCK if you agree to a restrictive license? Sounds pretty fishy to me.
oconnor0 16y ago
Wasn't Dalvik found not to be using any of Harmony's code?
shareme 16y ago
Dalvik uses no Apache Harmony code, the libraries you write against do
bad_user 16y ago
You don't know what a fork is. In order for it to be a fork, something has to get forked from the parent ... like the source code, or the standard.
- ollysb 16y ago
  In this case it would be a fork from the standard. Without allowing the TCK to be used against harmony the project must be considered a different standard that may will diverge in the future. Given the disappointment over closures and collection literals being delayed until java 8 there must be a temptation within the harmony camp to push ahead with these features and produce the version of java that many are clamoring for.
  - sigzero 16y ago
    It would be dead in the water if forked from the "standard". Java plays in the enterprise space and they are pretty particular about that sort of thing.
    - ollysb 16y ago
      I agree, the java community is generally extremely risk averse. This does however create a positive pressure towards such a fork. It seems very hypothetical at the moment but given that a fork were to receive backing from google I'm sure the enterprise community would be comfortable using it.

Autre 16y ago

Heading for JavaWars?

eddieplan9 16y ago

Please enlighten me as I am not very clear about the impact of this. Why there are people saying Java is on its death path because of this? The way I see it this only strengthens OpenJDK, which 99.9% of the applications are already using.

kls 16y ago
The TCK puts restrictions on mobile and I believe server run-times. So basically, it can only be used for desktop development or JVM lite if you will. Given that Java desktop was DOA you can see the usefulness of accepting those restrictions. Oracle as made no secret of their intent to monetize the JVM, there are a good deal of developers that believe that you don't pay to play for technology as low level as a language and run-time. So they are naturally concerned about the manner in which it will be monetized. Looking at the field of use restriction it can serve as an indicator as to where that plan to monetize it. Further with their suite against Google in relation to Android, I bleive that it paints a pretty big bulls eye on where they plan to monetize it. That being said, I have used Java since it was first placed on the net for download, I have seen it fall behind other languages and never once though it was going to die. It had too an extensive of an entrenchment and library available. I personally do believe that this was the death shot and when (I like to think) level headed guys like me, who have always said well it is good enough, sure it not shinny but good enough, start to think that it was the death shot, then it may very well be so. For me personally, if I where asked to throw my lot in with Apache or Oracle, it would be Apache, I use their technology every day, I do a project with Oracle technology (excluding the JVM now) maybe once a year. I think Oracle thinks the entrenchment is to great to overcome, for our sake I hope they are wrong. Fortunately for myself, I was an assembly developer before I was a C developer before I was a Java developer. So my exit, should it become untenable is easy enough given that I am a freelancer. I don't have a significant technology infrastructure investment like product people have. I truly feel for you guys that do, I would be really worried if I where in your shoes.

kls 16y ago

Eventually, the courts will get to decide how “open” an open-source project is when one company gets to call all the important shots. This is why I don't see a fork sustainable. Hostilities have already been mounted. I think Oracle taints the entire concept of using the JVM for anything as far as Apache is concerned. The only think I see now is the transition to separate and a completely independent technology. I wonder how difficult it would be to port the language and classes over to the LLVM, if their would even be legal ramifications in doing that and in the end if it is worth it, given that languages have progressed beyond Java now. Still maybe Apache would get something together that would allow it's libraries to operate on the LLVM while embracing a new language for future development. It's food for thought given that their is an imminent need to move beyond Oracle's reach.

regularfry 16y ago
> The only think I see now is the transition to separate and a completely independent technology. GCJ would be what you're looking for here, I think. The critical question would be how badly, if at all, GCJ would be affected by an Oracle militantly pursuing perceived patent violators. > languages have progressed beyond Java now It's not about the language. It's about the collosal amount of libraries in the ecosystem.
- kls 16y ago
  I think and I could be totally wrong on this one, but I think that Oracle could construe the GCJ as appropriating their ideas and infringing on their patents. Moving to something like the LLVM would at least help distance Apache from that. My point as far as languages go was not that the libraries are not worth it but if you have to go so far as moving all of them over too a wholly separate run-time, is it even worth it to continue Java the language or would it be better to just adopt Scala or some other language that incorporates modern features and make it compatible with the ported library set. I was really pondering if you go all that way, is it worth it to just go that last 1/10 of a mile, instead of trying to bring Java the language into the modern age.
po 16y ago
I wonder how difficult it would be to port the language and classes over to the LLVM, if their would even be legal ramifications in doing that and in the end if it is worth it, given that languages have progressed beyond Java now. Isn't that basically what Google did with Android/Dalvik and are now being sued by Oracle for?

jp 16y ago

Harmony is an alternative to OpenJDK. There is no need to fork anything unless they want to merge in some UI code or something. Suing Apache seems very counterproductive imo. I wrote a text about this earlier today if someone is interested. Not published here since it is kinda rantish. http://labs.teppefall.com/2010/12/calling_oracles_sco_bluff.html http://labs.teppefall.com/2010/12/calling_oracles_sco_bluff....