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I could argue the other side, as there's definitely value in a well assembled distro. But I won't because you're essentially complaining about what other people

I could argue the other side, as there's definitely value in a well assembled distro. But I won't because you're essentially complaining about what other people do with their own time. If you don't like it don't use it. Complaining about it with insults is a crappy thing to do and one of the reasons open-source maintainers burn out.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
I don't use it. That's one of the big reasons I don't use it. And just as they are free to do with their time as they like, I'm free to say "my but that's an inefficient way to do things". You're free not to like me for calling it out, and you're free to downvote me for disagreement. Freedom. I didn't insult anybody, the "fuck you" here is what the community says to people who want to install things that aren't in the repo.
- pedrocr 7y ago
  The community says no such thing, that's the insult. The community even has multiple options current and past to reduce frictions on using things that aren't packaged, or make packaging easier and updates faster. Your characterization of what a distro is and how it treats its users is insulting exactly because it completely discounts the huge effort that's put into solving the complex issues and the advantages it brings. You're not offering an argument for how things work today, their tradeoffs and what could be done better. You're not offering time or other resources to help. You're just attributing vile behaviors to other people while offering nothing of value.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
    > The community says no such thing, that's the insult. The community even has multiple options current and past to reduce frictions on using things that aren't packaged Some parts of the community do, namely the ones that came up with AppDirs, AppImages, and to a lesser extent Flatpak and Snap. The fact that these have not been widely adopted by the community over the past decade of their existence says all that needs saying about the community at large. Instead, what happens? Libraries routinely break ABIs, paths are hardcoded at compile time. Etc. If you complain about such things what do you get? An earful about how you should just use the package manager. > Your characterization of what a distro is and how it treats its users is insulting My characterization of distro's treatment of users is insulting because it characterizes their treatment of users as insulting... ok, sure. Then I guess it is an insult, and I feel no need to apologize for that. > exactly because it completely discounts the huge effort that's put into solving the complex issues and the advantages it brings. That's mostly because I can't really think of any benefits. I suppose a centralized location to obtain software? That's.... something I guess. Otherwise it is a giant, over-engineered mess of a system that largely only serves to solve problems it has created for itself. > You're not offering an argument for how things work today These things exist today, all that has to happen is for the community to start using them. > You're not offering time or other resources to help. See project this comment thread is about. They tried to help, the community told them to shove it. That's a story I've seen repeated many times, from embedded ELF icons to the many variations of AppDirs. There is nothing left to do but call the community out on why their crap is crap. Maybe I should just keep quiet about it? Yeah, maybe. I'm either preaching to the choir or committing horrific sacrilege depending on which perspective you're reading this from. But I guess I take it personally that there are so many people so intent on computing being awful.
    - pedrocr 7y ago
      > The fact that these have not been widely adopted by the community over the past several decades of their existence says all that needs saying about the community at large. The fact that someone hasn't adopted your favorite solution is not evidence of evil intentions. Maybe, just maybe, it's evidence people don't like that solution. >My characterization of distro's treatment of users is insulting because it characterizes their treatment of users as insulting... ok, sure. The insult is taking something that's a debatable point (we'd be better off with flatpacks) and turning that into "if you haven't yet turned all your efforts into doing what I think is best you're obviously user hostile". That's not an argument. >That's mostly because I can't really think of any benefits. Maybe you should have asked someone what those were before you concluded this was an evil plot to screw over users. > there are so many people so intent on computing being awful You keep making accusations about people's intentions and find it strange no one is willing to have a technical argument or work for free on what you'd like to happen. If you want a distro that's just a base and have everything as flat packs go ahead. Fork/replace/remove anything you like. But you're not owed anything from people that have decided to do things in their free time and accusing them of evil intentions does nothing to help your case.
      - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
        > The fact that someone hasn't adopted your favorite solution is not evidence of evil intentions. Maybe, just maybe, it's evidence people don't like that solution. It's evidence that the Linux Desktop community doesn't like that solution. That Linux still has paltry share on the desktop could be taken as evidence that no one else like's their solution. > The insult is taking something that's a debatable point (we'd be better off with flatpacks) and turning that into "if you haven't yet turned all your efforts into doing what I think is best you're obviously user hostile". That's not an argument. I don't need to point to package management to show evidence of user hostility, I just need to visit anywhere people ask questions about Linux. Even people who actually like Linux encounter the user-hostile attitude, just check out Gnome's github issues and related comments. Or you could consider every time you've heard "users don't need that", "users just want <simple lazy strawman usecase>", "users can't be trusted to ...", "users don't like it because it isn't shiny enough", etc. The Linux Desktop community has a cult of user hostility. > Maybe you should have asked someone what those were before you concluded this was an evil plot to screw over users. Oh believe me, I know the arguments. I get to hear them literally every time I say "I don't use Linux because I don't like package management". I just disagree with those arguments. > You keep making accusations about people's intentions and find it strange no one is willing to have a technical argument Even when you're nice about it people generally aren't willing to have a technical argument about it. I'm passionate about this topic, and having to watch for 2 decades now as people have tried to fix these issues only to be rejected and shunned by the community has made me a bit bitter. > or work for free on what you'd like to happen. This is always trotted out when all the other arguments fail. It's a fair point that I have no right to demand that people work for free, but I don't believe I've done that. What I've done is criticize the work they've done for free because it isn't what I want, and they keep asking things like "why isn't it the year of the Linux Desktop yet?". The people who have worked for free towards the things I want have been roundly shunned by the community. Case in point, the article this is all about.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago

I don't use it. That's one of the big reasons I don't use it. And just as they are free to do with their time as they like, I'm free to say "my but that's an inefficient way to do things". You're free not to like me for calling it out, and you're free to downvote me for disagreement. Freedom. I didn't insult anybody, the "fuck you" here is what the community says to people who want to install things that aren't in the repo.

pedrocr 7y ago
The community says no such thing, that's the insult. The community even has multiple options current and past to reduce frictions on using things that aren't packaged, or make packaging easier and updates faster. Your characterization of what a distro is and how it treats its users is insulting exactly because it completely discounts the huge effort that's put into solving the complex issues and the advantages it brings. You're not offering an argument for how things work today, their tradeoffs and what could be done better. You're not offering time or other resources to help. You're just attributing vile behaviors to other people while offering nothing of value.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
  > The community says no such thing, that's the insult. The community even has multiple options current and past to reduce frictions on using things that aren't packaged Some parts of the community do, namely the ones that came up with AppDirs, AppImages, and to a lesser extent Flatpak and Snap. The fact that these have not been widely adopted by the community over the past decade of their existence says all that needs saying about the community at large. Instead, what happens? Libraries routinely break ABIs, paths are hardcoded at compile time. Etc. If you complain about such things what do you get? An earful about how you should just use the package manager. > Your characterization of what a distro is and how it treats its users is insulting My characterization of distro's treatment of users is insulting because it characterizes their treatment of users as insulting... ok, sure. Then I guess it is an insult, and I feel no need to apologize for that. > exactly because it completely discounts the huge effort that's put into solving the complex issues and the advantages it brings. That's mostly because I can't really think of any benefits. I suppose a centralized location to obtain software? That's.... something I guess. Otherwise it is a giant, over-engineered mess of a system that largely only serves to solve problems it has created for itself. > You're not offering an argument for how things work today These things exist today, all that has to happen is for the community to start using them. > You're not offering time or other resources to help. See project this comment thread is about. They tried to help, the community told them to shove it. That's a story I've seen repeated many times, from embedded ELF icons to the many variations of AppDirs. There is nothing left to do but call the community out on why their crap is crap. Maybe I should just keep quiet about it? Yeah, maybe. I'm either preaching to the choir or committing horrific sacrilege depending on which perspective you're reading this from. But I guess I take it personally that there are so many people so intent on computing being awful.
  - pedrocr 7y ago
    > The fact that these have not been widely adopted by the community over the past several decades of their existence says all that needs saying about the community at large. The fact that someone hasn't adopted your favorite solution is not evidence of evil intentions. Maybe, just maybe, it's evidence people don't like that solution. >My characterization of distro's treatment of users is insulting because it characterizes their treatment of users as insulting... ok, sure. The insult is taking something that's a debatable point (we'd be better off with flatpacks) and turning that into "if you haven't yet turned all your efforts into doing what I think is best you're obviously user hostile". That's not an argument. >That's mostly because I can't really think of any benefits. Maybe you should have asked someone what those were before you concluded this was an evil plot to screw over users. > there are so many people so intent on computing being awful You keep making accusations about people's intentions and find it strange no one is willing to have a technical argument or work for free on what you'd like to happen. If you want a distro that's just a base and have everything as flat packs go ahead. Fork/replace/remove anything you like. But you're not owed anything from people that have decided to do things in their free time and accusing them of evil intentions does nothing to help your case.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
      > The fact that someone hasn't adopted your favorite solution is not evidence of evil intentions. Maybe, just maybe, it's evidence people don't like that solution. It's evidence that the Linux Desktop community doesn't like that solution. That Linux still has paltry share on the desktop could be taken as evidence that no one else like's their solution. > The insult is taking something that's a debatable point (we'd be better off with flatpacks) and turning that into "if you haven't yet turned all your efforts into doing what I think is best you're obviously user hostile". That's not an argument. I don't need to point to package management to show evidence of user hostility, I just need to visit anywhere people ask questions about Linux. Even people who actually like Linux encounter the user-hostile attitude, just check out Gnome's github issues and related comments. Or you could consider every time you've heard "users don't need that", "users just want <simple lazy strawman usecase>", "users can't be trusted to ...", "users don't like it because it isn't shiny enough", etc. The Linux Desktop community has a cult of user hostility. > Maybe you should have asked someone what those were before you concluded this was an evil plot to screw over users. Oh believe me, I know the arguments. I get to hear them literally every time I say "I don't use Linux because I don't like package management". I just disagree with those arguments. > You keep making accusations about people's intentions and find it strange no one is willing to have a technical argument Even when you're nice about it people generally aren't willing to have a technical argument about it. I'm passionate about this topic, and having to watch for 2 decades now as people have tried to fix these issues only to be rejected and shunned by the community has made me a bit bitter. > or work for free on what you'd like to happen. This is always trotted out when all the other arguments fail. It's a fair point that I have no right to demand that people work for free, but I don't believe I've done that. What I've done is criticize the work they've done for free because it isn't what I want, and they keep asking things like "why isn't it the year of the Linux Desktop yet?". The people who have worked for free towards the things I want have been roundly shunned by the community. Case in point, the article this is all about.