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That article didn’t really spell out any details, but coming from Trump I doubt the details are good. That said, I’ve always thought there was a glaring hole i

That article didn’t really spell out any details, but coming from Trump I doubt the details are good. That said, I’ve always thought there was a glaring hole in our immigration policy, which is that people who come and earn a degree in the US should have an easy option to stay and work and become citizens if they would like. It seems crazy to me that we’re investing a ton in the people who come here for higher education and then making it difficult for them to stay here and use the skills and education they acquired.

skohan 7y ago
I totally agree. I don't know anything about the details of this proposal so I can't speak to those specifically, but I don't see how it would be anything other than a slam-dunk to make it easy for people educated in the US to stay in the US. They are very likely to be higher-skilled and economically stable, and have already spent years assimilating. The only people I can imagine who would be against this are corporate interests, who can use visas to enforce a kind of indentured-servitude over high-skilled workers seeking residency in the current system. But given the way the economic winds are blowing, I don't see how the US is going to compete in the future if they don't try to keep all the talent in the country they can.
godelmachine 7y ago
>>”we’re investing a ton in the people who come here for higher education” Don’t foreign people coming for higher education pay tuition fees out of their own pockets?
- burlesona 7y ago
  I didn't mean we are paying cash to them, what I mean is the US institutions are investing time and energy -- yes in exchange for cash which came from them. The experience I was drawing this from is the international students who I studied with, many of whom were really smart and who had acquired a great deal of technical skill here in the US, who then wanted to stay and use their skills here but had a difficult time with the immigration process. To me it's crazy that we'd push high-skill people back out of the country if they'd like to stay.
treis 7y ago
>It seems crazy to me that we’re investing a ton in the people who come here for higher education and then making it difficult for them to stay here and use the skills and education they acquired. Foreign students pretty much always pay full fare so they a profit center for U.S. universities not really an investment.
- dfee 7y ago
  If the argument is that a degree is an investment (I.e. future payout >> upfront cost), then we must think of the opportunity cost in not investing in citizens, but rather slotting in foreign students. This is why the government subsidizes tuition via pell-grants, etc.
  - treis 7y ago
    > rather slotting in foreign students They don't really take up slots though. More like they fund slots for other students to not pay full fare.
sonnyblarney 7y ago
" people who come and earn a degree in the US should have an easy option to stay and work and become citizens if they would like." No, this would immediately put Universities in the business of selling citizenship. Of course they'd probably love that. Though foreign student exports have doubled in the last few years, it'd grow even faster as a source of revenue for them. The criteria for admissions in many undergrad/graduate programs is really not that high, and some schools are not very expensive at all. "we’re investing a ton in the people who come here" When foreign students pay tuition that's an export for the US, it's not so much 'the US investing in them' (though I understand many are on scholarships, and the institutions get indirect funding). There are 1.1 Million foreign students in the US, and it's a $42 Billion dollar export [1]. That's quite a lot of money (and quite a lot of people). Surely, under a 'merit based system' foreign students should get a bunch of 'points' towards the system, but a broad points-based system is by far better than a 'buy your undergrad/citizenship' program. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/03/magazine/one-of-americas-most-vital-exports-education-never-goes-abroad-but-it-still-faces-threats.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/03/magazine/one-of-americas-...
- klipt 7y ago
  You can already buy US citizenship for newborns. All it costs is an air ticket and a hospital stay.
- mac01021 7y ago
  > The criteria for admissions in many undergrad/graduate programs is really not that high, and some schools are not very expensive at all. We could, at the same time, make standards a lot higher to obtain a student visa in the first place. I for one have no problem making it extremely hard to get a student visa or an H1. But it seems to me rather unfair to allow someone to build a life here for 6 or 8 years and then deport them. In general, a system where only the most promising individuals are awarded immigrant visas, and where it is extremely difficult and unpleasant to reside here as an illegal immigrant, but where anyone who has resided here for a given number if years (legally or otherwise) is automatically a permanent resident, might be a marked improvement over the current system. Almost all new immigrants would be economic assets, would not drive down wages for working class citizens. And at the same time the problem of the "dreamers" already here will be solved.
dragonwriter 7y ago
> It seems crazy to me that we’re investing a ton in the people who come here for higher education We aren't. People who come here to do that are a revenue source subsidizing domestic students, in public institutions. That may not be the case in private institutions, but in that case it is the private institution that is investing in them, presumably because it is a net gain in terms of how that institution envisions it's mission.
- burlesona 7y ago
  I could have worded it more clearly, but I didn't mean cash investment, I meant educational investment. I posted a further clarification as a reply to the original message.
KirinDave 7y ago
> It seems crazy to me that we’re investing a ton in the people who come here for higher education and then making it difficult for them to stay here and use the skills and education they acquired. Those folks pay a lot to come here in most higher learning institutions.
burlesona 7y ago
It looks like most of the comments interpreted what I said very differently than I meant it. I didn't mean "invest" as in cash investment, I meant the educational investment -- our institutions are putting in time and energy to build skills. Yes the students pay for it, and yes this makes money for the universities, I wasn't trying to say anything about that part. Rather, drawing from my own life experience: I studied with a number of really sharp international students, who through their own talent and hard work in university acquired great technical skills. Many of those people then wanted to stay in the US permanently, but weren't able to get through immigration. My point is that it seems very strange for us to be pushing high-motivation, high-skill people out of the country if they would like to stay -- even more strange when they came and acquired the skills here. Those people are going to be a great contribution to whichever country they call home, if they'd like to make their contribution here then I personally would welcome them with open arms.

skohan 7y ago

I totally agree. I don't know anything about the details of this proposal so I can't speak to those specifically, but I don't see how it would be anything other than a slam-dunk to make it easy for people educated in the US to stay in the US. They are very likely to be higher-skilled and economically stable, and have already spent years assimilating. The only people I can imagine who would be against this are corporate interests, who can use visas to enforce a kind of indentured-servitude over high-skilled workers seeking residency in the current system. But given the way the economic winds are blowing, I don't see how the US is going to compete in the future if they don't try to keep all the talent in the country they can.

godelmachine 7y ago

>>”we’re investing a ton in the people who come here for higher education” Don’t foreign people coming for higher education pay tuition fees out of their own pockets?

burlesona 7y ago
I didn't mean we are paying cash to them, what I mean is the US institutions are investing time and energy -- yes in exchange for cash which came from them. The experience I was drawing this from is the international students who I studied with, many of whom were really smart and who had acquired a great deal of technical skill here in the US, who then wanted to stay and use their skills here but had a difficult time with the immigration process. To me it's crazy that we'd push high-skill people back out of the country if they'd like to stay.

treis 7y ago

>It seems crazy to me that we’re investing a ton in the people who come here for higher education and then making it difficult for them to stay here and use the skills and education they acquired. Foreign students pretty much always pay full fare so they a profit center for U.S. universities not really an investment.

dfee 7y ago
If the argument is that a degree is an investment (I.e. future payout >> upfront cost), then we must think of the opportunity cost in not investing in citizens, but rather slotting in foreign students. This is why the government subsidizes tuition via pell-grants, etc.
- treis 7y ago
  > rather slotting in foreign students They don't really take up slots though. More like they fund slots for other students to not pay full fare.

sonnyblarney 7y ago

" people who come and earn a degree in the US should have an easy option to stay and work and become citizens if they would like." No, this would immediately put Universities in the business of selling citizenship. Of course they'd probably love that. Though foreign student exports have doubled in the last few years, it'd grow even faster as a source of revenue for them. The criteria for admissions in many undergrad/graduate programs is really not that high, and some schools are not very expensive at all. "we’re investing a ton in the people who come here" When foreign students pay tuition that's an export for the US, it's not so much 'the US investing in them' (though I understand many are on scholarships, and the institutions get indirect funding). There are 1.1 Million foreign students in the US, and it's a $42 Billion dollar export [1]. That's quite a lot of money (and quite a lot of people). Surely, under a 'merit based system' foreign students should get a bunch of 'points' towards the system, but a broad points-based system is by far better than a 'buy your undergrad/citizenship' program. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/03/magazine/one-of-americas-most-vital-exports-education-never-goes-abroad-but-it-still-faces-threats.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/03/magazine/one-of-americas-...

klipt 7y ago
You can already buy US citizenship for newborns. All it costs is an air ticket and a hospital stay.
mac01021 7y ago
> The criteria for admissions in many undergrad/graduate programs is really not that high, and some schools are not very expensive at all. We could, at the same time, make standards a lot higher to obtain a student visa in the first place. I for one have no problem making it extremely hard to get a student visa or an H1. But it seems to me rather unfair to allow someone to build a life here for 6 or 8 years and then deport them. In general, a system where only the most promising individuals are awarded immigrant visas, and where it is extremely difficult and unpleasant to reside here as an illegal immigrant, but where anyone who has resided here for a given number if years (legally or otherwise) is automatically a permanent resident, might be a marked improvement over the current system. Almost all new immigrants would be economic assets, would not drive down wages for working class citizens. And at the same time the problem of the "dreamers" already here will be solved.

dragonwriter 7y ago

> It seems crazy to me that we’re investing a ton in the people who come here for higher education We aren't. People who come here to do that are a revenue source subsidizing domestic students, in public institutions. That may not be the case in private institutions, but in that case it is the private institution that is investing in them, presumably because it is a net gain in terms of how that institution envisions it's mission.

burlesona 7y ago
I could have worded it more clearly, but I didn't mean cash investment, I meant educational investment. I posted a further clarification as a reply to the original message.

KirinDave 7y ago

> It seems crazy to me that we’re investing a ton in the people who come here for higher education and then making it difficult for them to stay here and use the skills and education they acquired. Those folks pay a lot to come here in most higher learning institutions.

burlesona 7y ago

It looks like most of the comments interpreted what I said very differently than I meant it. I didn't mean "invest" as in cash investment, I meant the educational investment -- our institutions are putting in time and energy to build skills. Yes the students pay for it, and yes this makes money for the universities, I wasn't trying to say anything about that part. Rather, drawing from my own life experience: I studied with a number of really sharp international students, who through their own talent and hard work in university acquired great technical skills. Many of those people then wanted to stay in the US permanently, but weren't able to get through immigration. My point is that it seems very strange for us to be pushing high-motivation, high-skill people out of the country if they would like to stay -- even more strange when they came and acquired the skills here. Those people are going to be a great contribution to whichever country they call home, if they'd like to make their contribution here then I personally would welcome them with open arms.