7 ms·

This seems like it would set up a situation where immigrants really do compete for US jobs, rather than being a net economic positive. Right now, unauthorized

This seems like it would set up a situation where immigrants really do compete for US jobs, rather than being a net economic positive. Right now, unauthorized immigrants are 24% of maids and cleaners, half of ag workers, and a big chunk of construction labor and home aides like nannies. These jobs are filled by immigrants because they are a big step up for a lot of the people arriving here, while Americans don't want them. In a saner world, work visas for unskilled labor and a pathway up to citizenship would benefit everyone. Instead, the president seems to want a carve-out for the tech and health industry that makes life more precarious for everyone else. Source on numbers: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/illegal-immigrants-us-jobs-economy-farm-workers-taxes/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/illegal-immigrants-us-jobs-econ...

wtdata 7y ago
Sure, but on the other side, the pay for those jobs would also have a bigger pressure on them to increase. Someone will always have to do those jobs (at least for a long time until when/if machines do them), we shouldn't expect them to be fulfilled only by immigrants willing to take jobs that nobody else wants. In Scandinavia - up to a degree - those kind of jobs carry a big pay and a set of perks that makes people actually wanting to take them, instead of being a last resort activity. It also helps create a positive view in society about those jobs instead of being a motive for social discrimination.
- idlewords 7y ago
  I paid $80 for a cheese pizza in Norway.
JPKab 7y ago
"while Americans don't want them" Former construction worker here. Americans don't want these jobs at the below-market wages they pay. The wages would be higher if not for the supply being inflated by laborers willing to work for below minimum wage. The most dangerous job in the world (Alaskan crab fisherman) is brutal, dirty, and high paying. Therefore there are always American citizens waiting on the docks to learn the trade. Not saying I don't want more immigration in the US. I want WAY more of it, but only if it's not reducing pay in entry level vocations.
- Consultant32452 7y ago
  This is the most backwards part of this whole argument. Democrats want the status quo or even more people competing for and pushing down wages on the low end. Their immigration policies hurt the poor the most. Republicans want to bring in highly educated, high skill people who will suppress the wages of the middle and upper middle class. Somehow no one that matters in politics is willing to point this out against the other side.
  - darkpuma 7y ago
    It's one of those strange instances where both 'sides' seem to be sides of the same coin. Like vanilla or chocolate ice cream; ostensibly very different, except both are ice cream. It really feels like neither side has the best interests of the public at heart.
- idlewords 7y ago
  I can't speak to construction in particular, but my statement is 100% true for low-wage ag labor. See https://www.huffpost.com/entry/wisconsin-dairy-industry-undocumented-workers_n_59c3cfb7e4b06f93538cfd3f https://www.huffpost.com/entry/wisconsin-dairy-industry-undo... for examples in the dairy industry.
  - darkpuma 7y ago
    For a few years I worked in the bean processing industry alongside many other citizens, working for a small (relatively speaking) ag business that only hired citizens on principle. These jobs were highly competitive; I only got the job because I had the privilege of the owner being my godfather. These were low skill jobs that other businesses would use illegal labor below minimum wage for. My first job for him was standing next to a conveyor belt and picking the sticks out of the beans. Real boring work, but for my education level at the time the pay was great. I eventually moved on, but I have a lot of friends from highschool still working for that business (now working for my godfather's son, who took over the business after his father retired a while back.) So what you are saying may be largely true for low-wage ag labor, but it's not 100% true for fair wage low-skill ag labor.
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KirinDave 7y ago
This might be more compelling if American unemployment wasn't at a quite low 3%. Even if we take into account how that number is reduced in volume, the issue with these jobs is not that Americans can't find them, it's that they don't want to take them. I don't mean to imply that Americans are being irrational or incorrect. Merely that the jobs you're referring to often aren't considered actionable by many Americans, and the numbers suggest this is a far more powerful factor. Perhaps if we agree to a higher minimum wage and more aggressively pursue affordable housing solutions near where these jobs are, then we can see other effects.

wtdata 7y ago

Sure, but on the other side, the pay for those jobs would also have a bigger pressure on them to increase. Someone will always have to do those jobs (at least for a long time until when/if machines do them), we shouldn't expect them to be fulfilled only by immigrants willing to take jobs that nobody else wants. In Scandinavia - up to a degree - those kind of jobs carry a big pay and a set of perks that makes people actually wanting to take them, instead of being a last resort activity. It also helps create a positive view in society about those jobs instead of being a motive for social discrimination.

idlewords 7y ago
I paid $80 for a cheese pizza in Norway.

JPKab 7y ago

"while Americans don't want them" Former construction worker here. Americans don't want these jobs at the below-market wages they pay. The wages would be higher if not for the supply being inflated by laborers willing to work for below minimum wage. The most dangerous job in the world (Alaskan crab fisherman) is brutal, dirty, and high paying. Therefore there are always American citizens waiting on the docks to learn the trade. Not saying I don't want more immigration in the US. I want WAY more of it, but only if it's not reducing pay in entry level vocations.

Consultant32452 7y ago
This is the most backwards part of this whole argument. Democrats want the status quo or even more people competing for and pushing down wages on the low end. Their immigration policies hurt the poor the most. Republicans want to bring in highly educated, high skill people who will suppress the wages of the middle and upper middle class. Somehow no one that matters in politics is willing to point this out against the other side.
- darkpuma 7y ago
  It's one of those strange instances where both 'sides' seem to be sides of the same coin. Like vanilla or chocolate ice cream; ostensibly very different, except both are ice cream. It really feels like neither side has the best interests of the public at heart.
idlewords 7y ago
I can't speak to construction in particular, but my statement is 100% true for low-wage ag labor. See https://www.huffpost.com/entry/wisconsin-dairy-industry-undocumented-workers_n_59c3cfb7e4b06f93538cfd3f https://www.huffpost.com/entry/wisconsin-dairy-industry-undo... for examples in the dairy industry.
- darkpuma 7y ago
  For a few years I worked in the bean processing industry alongside many other citizens, working for a small (relatively speaking) ag business that only hired citizens on principle. These jobs were highly competitive; I only got the job because I had the privilege of the owner being my godfather. These were low skill jobs that other businesses would use illegal labor below minimum wage for. My first job for him was standing next to a conveyor belt and picking the sticks out of the beans. Real boring work, but for my education level at the time the pay was great. I eventually moved on, but I have a lot of friends from highschool still working for that business (now working for my godfather's son, who took over the business after his father retired a while back.) So what you are saying may be largely true for low-wage ag labor, but it's not 100% true for fair wage low-skill ag labor.

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KirinDave 7y ago

This might be more compelling if American unemployment wasn't at a quite low 3%. Even if we take into account how that number is reduced in volume, the issue with these jobs is not that Americans can't find them, it's that they don't want to take them. I don't mean to imply that Americans are being irrational or incorrect. Merely that the jobs you're referring to often aren't considered actionable by many Americans, and the numbers suggest this is a far more powerful factor. Perhaps if we agree to a higher minimum wage and more aggressively pursue affordable housing solutions near where these jobs are, then we can see other effects.