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Today, there is no wind in Ireland (only 5% load) They use coal, gaz and oil instead. They are producing almost 500g of eq-CO2 per KWh. This is a greenwashing

by samber 7y ago

Today, there is no wind in Ireland (only 5% load) They use coal, gaz and oil instead. They are producing almost 500g of eq-CO2 per KWh. This is a greenwashing post. Ireland produce a lot of greenhouse gas in power generation. Countries with low emissions use hydro-electricity or nuclear reactors. Data here => https://www.electricitymap.org/?page=country&solar=false&remote=true&wind=true&countryCode=IE https://www.electricitymap.org/?page=country&solar=false&rem...

electricityUser 7y ago
Since 37% is an average there ought to be periods with a lot more than 37% coming from wind if 5% phases happen from time to time as well. How is this greenwashing exactly?
- ElKrist 7y ago
  You gave the answer in your own question. The fact that it is not a constant 37% is the problem here. What do you do when you get 10x less wind than the average? People still expect the same services (train, heaters..) to run
  - talideon 7y ago
    That's what interconnects partly are for. Ireland is an island, but its grid is no longer separated from the rest of Europe. We're getting closer to a point where, when we have a surplus, it can get sent elsewhere, and when we have a deficit, it can be pulled from elsewhere.
    - ElKrist 7y ago
      Sure. If you assume that electricity from renewables are randomly distributed in time across your grid then all countries can do that. Unfortunately it's not the case (it's night time in Ireland and France at roughly the same hours) and so this model relies on the fact that other countries have non intermittent power sources that can kick in when it's night time and there is no wind. You've just moved the problem
      - talideon 7y ago
        Let's get one thing straight here: neither I nor anybody else is arguing that renewables (which are currently mostly intermittant) can replace non-renewable sources. They are, however, complementary: the more power you generate from the renewables, the longer you can stretch out the supply of the non-renewables. And that is an unqualified good. Of course the problem just moved. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, because the way that it moves can itself be beneficial. > If you assume that electricity from renewables are randomly distributed in time across your grid then all countries can do that. That's not an argument I'm making. The closest I come to that is that the distribution of power sources across different interconnected grids can compensate for each other. Distribution isn't random: geography figures into this hugely. Ireland has vast areas off its Atlantic coasts to put off-shore windfarms in addition to the current mostly land-based ones. Most wind power generated, especially off-shore, is generated around the time of peak hours. That means a potential surplus around the same time, which can be sent elsewhere, where they're also hitting their peak hours. At the risk of vastly oversimplifying things, power can flow back and forward over the interconnects, covering the difference, and we're good enough at forecasting usage and availability at this point that the surpluses and deficits can be accounted. Intermittant and non-intermittant sources are complementary. The problem is moved, but
  - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
    It's wind. It can't be a constant. Winds vary. So all that matters is having a suitable mix, including wind, to produce low or no emission power. It will also include hydro and pumped storage, of which Ireland has several. There's probably not many suitable sites they aren't already using. Solar and possibly wave or tidal too. That they're not going fast enough (no one is) still doesn't make it greenwashing.
  - ben_w 7y ago
    Then and only then they use other power sources. Even if those sources are coal, so what? It’s not like the coal plants have to run 24/7 even when the wind is blowing.
    - jabl 7y ago
      As the capacity factor of wind is something like 30-40%, it's not "then and only then" those fossil plants will be running, it's most of the time. To reach 2C targets that's not nearly good enough.
      - ben_w 7y ago
        Wind produced 37% of the country’s energy so far this year. That’s 37% not produced by coal. That it isn’t a complete solution should not be classified as a dealbreaker especially given it’s still growing and power supplies are multi-sourced anyway.
        jabl 7y ago
        Sure, it's A LOT better than doing nothing. Just saying that merely more of the same isn't necessarily a pathway towards deep decarbonization.
    - ElKrist 7y ago
      It means you have to dimension your coal power plants so that they can cover the case where there is no wind and accept to not use them when there is plenty of wind. And that does not sound economically good [1]: "Fixed costs combined with lower running hours are devastating for coal power economics." To be clear I am not advocating for using coal instead of renewables. However advertising a total amount of "clean" intermittent energy produced without talking about what happens the rest of the time is greenwashing. [1] https://www.carbontracker.org/understanding-operating-cost-coal-fired-power-us-example/ https://www.carbontracker.org/understanding-operating-cost-c...
      - ben_w 7y ago
- yodsanklai 7y ago
  I think it re-enforces the confusion that wind/solar is the best strategy to reduce CO2 emissions. It may be in some places, but not everywhere, it may even be counter-productive. For instance, France has low CO2 emission as most of its electricity is from nuclear plants. If global warming is the most immediate treat, it would make little sense to dismantle them now. There are much better investments to make than buying solar panels. That's an issue I'm having with the green party in France who doesn't seem to recognize this.
  - ljf 7y ago
    Out of interest - what would you say those better investments are, that we could make?
    - yodsanklai 7y ago
      I'm not an expert but in France where electricity production is nuclear, I'd say renovating housing (heating systems/insulation), promoting public transportation and discouraging the use of polluting vehicles, improving industry efficiency...
      - ljf 7y ago
        Agree - though with the amount that we currently subsidise nuclear in the UK, I'd rather we did both (invest in non-engery producing green tech AND invest in renewables)
  - pjc50 7y ago
    I agree that it doesn't make sense to dismantle safe nuclear plants within their normal operating lifetime, but I'm not convinced it makes sense to build any more - and the lead time is about a decade!
jajag 7y ago
Precisely - we're still going to miss our CO2 reduction targets by a mile: https://www.rte.ie/news/environment/2019/0515/1049589-carbon-credits/ https://www.rte.ie/news/environment/2019/0515/1049589-carbon...
pjc50 7y ago
There's not many suitable sites for hydro in Ireland that aren't already used.
endorphone 7y ago
Saying this is greenwashing is rather extraordinary doublespeak and is an element of the contrarian cynicism that just muddies the waters. Ireland relied upon overwhelmingly greenhouse gas producing power generation in years past. This year they're on target to hit 1/3 of their power generation from wind power. That is fantastic, and is a remarkable accomplishment. There is no "greenwashing". Throwing in the momentary wind percentage is absurd in the context.
- dalbasal 7y ago
  Also, I don't think it's true. It is currently windy in dublin.
  - samber 7y ago
    I trust you, but Dublin is not Ireland. electricitymap.org aggregates real-time data from ENTSOE API.
dalbasal 7y ago
Could have fooled me. I'm standing at a shop front right now to get out from the wind & rain. But it's true, we're not the best example of clean power relative to nearby countries. That said, wind is going ok.
talideon 7y ago
We also have interconnects that pull power from the UK and soon France too. We're fully aware of our dependence on fossil fuels (though what's down in that map as 'coal' for Ireland is mostly actually turf, not coal). The whole point of this exercise is to move away from it and diversify our energy sources. The whole point of interconnects is so that as we ramp up on renewable sources, we need some way to smooth out the ramp-up and ramp-down. We already produce/store as much from hydro as we can. We have the same issue as the Netherlands has in that Ireland is a relatively flat country. Negligence in the UK regarding their nuclear energy sector pretty much killed any chance of a nuclear power plant ever existing on the island of Ireland. That might chance when practical non-fissile nuclear sources come along, but not yet. This isn't greenwashing: this is a sign of progress. Nobody expects a single renewable source to be a panacea, nor that they'll eliminate the need for non-renewables any time soon. However, they do allow us to transition to a state where we're less dependent on them and can stretch out our supply.
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
  > Negligence in the UK regarding their nuclear energy sector pretty much killed any chance of a nuclear power plant ever existing on the island of Ireland Huh? How does that follow? Besides I thought Ireland started and abandoned building a nuclear plant sometime in the 70s. I know nuclear is currently prohibited there, but not why, only that it was fairly recent.
  - talideon 7y ago
    You've heard of Sellafield, right? That's what finally killed any chance of a nuclear plant being set up in Ireland. The Carnsore Point plant was mooted in the 70s, but the opposition was so great it had to be shelved. There's some talk of a gen IV plant being built to replace Moneypoint, but I can't see it happening. It's not prohibited, but the opposition to it amongst the population is great enough that it's not feasible politically.
    - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
      Fair enough - I assumed it couldn't be that as the worst cock ups were far further back than Carnsore era - like the Windscale fire in the 50s. That and governments everywhere not really doing much consultation or reaction to public opinion back then. Recent issues have seemed more of privatisation than negligence - still not what we want of nuclear of course. I'd like decommissioning to go far smoother as they're just down the road from us, should there be another cock up. Wikipedia seems to think it is prohibited - 1999 Electricity Regulation Act. I only ever heard oblique references to it being banned, with no further explanation, so I know nothing more. Even Wikipedia raises more questions than answers.

by samber 7y ago

electricityUser 7y ago

Since 37% is an average there ought to be periods with a lot more than 37% coming from wind if 5% phases happen from time to time as well. How is this greenwashing exactly?

ElKrist 7y ago
You gave the answer in your own question. The fact that it is not a constant 37% is the problem here. What do you do when you get 10x less wind than the average? People still expect the same services (train, heaters..) to run
- talideon 7y ago
  That's what interconnects partly are for. Ireland is an island, but its grid is no longer separated from the rest of Europe. We're getting closer to a point where, when we have a surplus, it can get sent elsewhere, and when we have a deficit, it can be pulled from elsewhere.
  - ElKrist 7y ago
    Sure. If you assume that electricity from renewables are randomly distributed in time across your grid then all countries can do that. Unfortunately it's not the case (it's night time in Ireland and France at roughly the same hours) and so this model relies on the fact that other countries have non intermittent power sources that can kick in when it's night time and there is no wind. You've just moved the problem
    - talideon 7y ago
      Let's get one thing straight here: neither I nor anybody else is arguing that renewables (which are currently mostly intermittant) can replace non-renewable sources. They are, however, complementary: the more power you generate from the renewables, the longer you can stretch out the supply of the non-renewables. And that is an unqualified good. Of course the problem just moved. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, because the way that it moves can itself be beneficial. > If you assume that electricity from renewables are randomly distributed in time across your grid then all countries can do that. That's not an argument I'm making. The closest I come to that is that the distribution of power sources across different interconnected grids can compensate for each other. Distribution isn't random: geography figures into this hugely. Ireland has vast areas off its Atlantic coasts to put off-shore windfarms in addition to the current mostly land-based ones. Most wind power generated, especially off-shore, is generated around the time of peak hours. That means a potential surplus around the same time, which can be sent elsewhere, where they're also hitting their peak hours. At the risk of vastly oversimplifying things, power can flow back and forward over the interconnects, covering the difference, and we're good enough at forecasting usage and availability at this point that the surpluses and deficits can be accounted. Intermittant and non-intermittant sources are complementary. The problem is moved, but
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
  It's wind. It can't be a constant. Winds vary. So all that matters is having a suitable mix, including wind, to produce low or no emission power. It will also include hydro and pumped storage, of which Ireland has several. There's probably not many suitable sites they aren't already using. Solar and possibly wave or tidal too. That they're not going fast enough (no one is) still doesn't make it greenwashing.
- ben_w 7y ago
  Then and only then they use other power sources. Even if those sources are coal, so what? It’s not like the coal plants have to run 24/7 even when the wind is blowing.
  - jabl 7y ago
    As the capacity factor of wind is something like 30-40%, it's not "then and only then" those fossil plants will be running, it's most of the time. To reach 2C targets that's not nearly good enough.
    - ben_w 7y ago
      Wind produced 37% of the country’s energy so far this year. That’s 37% not produced by coal. That it isn’t a complete solution should not be classified as a dealbreaker especially given it’s still growing and power supplies are multi-sourced anyway.
      - jabl 7y ago
        Sure, it's A LOT better than doing nothing. Just saying that merely more of the same isn't necessarily a pathway towards deep decarbonization.
  - ElKrist 7y ago
    It means you have to dimension your coal power plants so that they can cover the case where there is no wind and accept to not use them when there is plenty of wind. And that does not sound economically good [1]: "Fixed costs combined with lower running hours are devastating for coal power economics." To be clear I am not advocating for using coal instead of renewables. However advertising a total amount of "clean" intermittent energy produced without talking about what happens the rest of the time is greenwashing. [1] https://www.carbontracker.org/understanding-operating-cost-coal-fired-power-us-example/ https://www.carbontracker.org/understanding-operating-cost-c...
    - ben_w 7y ago
yodsanklai 7y ago
I think it re-enforces the confusion that wind/solar is the best strategy to reduce CO2 emissions. It may be in some places, but not everywhere, it may even be counter-productive. For instance, France has low CO2 emission as most of its electricity is from nuclear plants. If global warming is the most immediate treat, it would make little sense to dismantle them now. There are much better investments to make than buying solar panels. That's an issue I'm having with the green party in France who doesn't seem to recognize this.
- ljf 7y ago
  Out of interest - what would you say those better investments are, that we could make?
  - yodsanklai 7y ago
    I'm not an expert but in France where electricity production is nuclear, I'd say renovating housing (heating systems/insulation), promoting public transportation and discouraging the use of polluting vehicles, improving industry efficiency...
    - ljf 7y ago
      Agree - though with the amount that we currently subsidise nuclear in the UK, I'd rather we did both (invest in non-engery producing green tech AND invest in renewables)
- pjc50 7y ago
  I agree that it doesn't make sense to dismantle safe nuclear plants within their normal operating lifetime, but I'm not convinced it makes sense to build any more - and the lead time is about a decade!

jajag 7y ago

Precisely - we're still going to miss our CO2 reduction targets by a mile: https://www.rte.ie/news/environment/2019/0515/1049589-carbon-credits/ https://www.rte.ie/news/environment/2019/0515/1049589-carbon...

pjc50 7y ago

There's not many suitable sites for hydro in Ireland that aren't already used.

endorphone 7y ago

Saying this is greenwashing is rather extraordinary doublespeak and is an element of the contrarian cynicism that just muddies the waters. Ireland relied upon overwhelmingly greenhouse gas producing power generation in years past. This year they're on target to hit 1/3 of their power generation from wind power. That is fantastic, and is a remarkable accomplishment. There is no "greenwashing". Throwing in the momentary wind percentage is absurd in the context.

dalbasal 7y ago
Also, I don't think it's true. It is currently windy in dublin.
- samber 7y ago
  I trust you, but Dublin is not Ireland. electricitymap.org aggregates real-time data from ENTSOE API.

dalbasal 7y ago

Could have fooled me. I'm standing at a shop front right now to get out from the wind & rain. But it's true, we're not the best example of clean power relative to nearby countries. That said, wind is going ok.

talideon 7y ago

We also have interconnects that pull power from the UK and soon France too. We're fully aware of our dependence on fossil fuels (though what's down in that map as 'coal' for Ireland is mostly actually turf, not coal). The whole point of this exercise is to move away from it and diversify our energy sources. The whole point of interconnects is so that as we ramp up on renewable sources, we need some way to smooth out the ramp-up and ramp-down. We already produce/store as much from hydro as we can. We have the same issue as the Netherlands has in that Ireland is a relatively flat country. Negligence in the UK regarding their nuclear energy sector pretty much killed any chance of a nuclear power plant ever existing on the island of Ireland. That might chance when practical non-fissile nuclear sources come along, but not yet. This isn't greenwashing: this is a sign of progress. Nobody expects a single renewable source to be a panacea, nor that they'll eliminate the need for non-renewables any time soon. However, they do allow us to transition to a state where we're less dependent on them and can stretch out our supply.

NeedMoreTea 7y ago
> Negligence in the UK regarding their nuclear energy sector pretty much killed any chance of a nuclear power plant ever existing on the island of Ireland Huh? How does that follow? Besides I thought Ireland started and abandoned building a nuclear plant sometime in the 70s. I know nuclear is currently prohibited there, but not why, only that it was fairly recent.
- talideon 7y ago
  You've heard of Sellafield, right? That's what finally killed any chance of a nuclear plant being set up in Ireland. The Carnsore Point plant was mooted in the 70s, but the opposition was so great it had to be shelved. There's some talk of a gen IV plant being built to replace Moneypoint, but I can't see it happening. It's not prohibited, but the opposition to it amongst the population is great enough that it's not feasible politically.
  - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
    Fair enough - I assumed it couldn't be that as the worst cock ups were far further back than Carnsore era - like the Windscale fire in the 50s. That and governments everywhere not really doing much consultation or reaction to public opinion back then. Recent issues have seemed more of privatisation than negligence - still not what we want of nuclear of course. I'd like decommissioning to go far smoother as they're just down the road from us, should there be another cock up. Wikipedia seems to think it is prohibited - 1999 Electricity Regulation Act. I only ever heard oblique references to it being banned, with no further explanation, so I know nothing more. Even Wikipedia raises more questions than answers.