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As an owner and autonomous driving fan I keep asking the same question. Will autonomous cars be legislated to always obey the law or will that still be a judgme

As an owner and autonomous driving fan I keep asking the same question. Will autonomous cars be legislated to always obey the law or will that still be a judgment left to the driver if the car can be driven either way. I am surprised there are not laws to have cars alert you to the fact your speeding for the systems that can read speed limit signs in addition to have current maps.

CydeWeys 7y ago
It seems inevitable that autonomous vehicles will be required to obey speed limits in the future. The question in my mind is will it be the same speed limits as for humans?
- tastroder 7y ago
  I don't see how that is even a question without 100% autonomy and proven above-human performance, human drivers on the same roads still have to react so different speed limits don't seem to make much sense.
  - nightski 7y ago
    Well seeing as you can get a ticket for going at or under the speed limit in some major cities because it is a hazard that might be interesting.
    - perl4ever 7y ago
      I believe the law in NY state uses the phrase "impeding traffic" and doesn't reference the speed limit. So (although I am not a lawyer) I imagine you could violate it whether you were going under, at, or over, the limit.
- gambiting 7y ago
  Yes, because: 1) I don't believe we'll go "autonomous cars only" for predictable future. I can see that happening on limited set of streets(say, strict city centres), but not overall. Mostly because I think requiring everyone to buy an autonomous car is ridiculous, and then there are cars made even right now that I can totally see people driving in 20/30/50 years from now. We'll always allow manual cars on the road, just like we still allow horses - it just became so rare that in practice it's not an issue to have an animal with no safety features on the road next to modern motor vehicles. 2) there will always be users of the road that cannot be made automous - motorcycles. Unless you believe that motorcycles will be banned, but I don't think that will happen. So yes, I think any speed limits of the future will be set for humans first and foremost. I do look forward to those speed limits to be revised up though - cars are far safer and more efficient at higher speeds than they were few decades ago, and yet speed limits have never been revised to reflect that. US is particularly bad at this, with empty stretches of straight road having a speed limit of 50mph for instance. That should have been fixed years ago.
- cesarb 7y ago
  We already have different speed limits for different users in some highways (for instance, one major highway near where I live has a limit in some places of 110 km/h for cars and 90 km/h for trucks and buses), so there's precedent. But I believe that, at least initially, speed limits for self-driving vehicles will be lower.
gambiting 7y ago
>>I am surprised there are not laws to have cars alert you to the fact your speeding for the systems that can read speed limit signs in addition to have current maps. Well, there are systems that do this. Many new cars have speed limit sign recognition built in and they will display the current limit on the dashboard(and sometimes show you an icon indicating that the vehicle thinks you are speeding). The reason why this is not more aggressive is because it's only seemingly a simple problem - in reality it's far far from it. In my experience of driving around the EU - I had a Mercedes CLS(brand new 2019 model) with adaptive cruise control and speed limit signs recognition, and while amazing when it worked, it worked maybe 50% of the time. Issues I noticed: 1) it kept detecting speed limit signs on roads parallel to the one I was on [0] 2) it kept detecting speed limit signs on side roads - leading to actual dangerous situations, because I was on a 50mph road, going past a 20mph side street and the car would suddenly hit the brakes because it detected a 20mph speed limit. That's 10000% unnacceptable in a production vehicle. [1] 3) it kept reading speed limit signs on the slip roads leaving the motorway - so you're doing 70mph on the motorway, and it suddenly reads the 50mph speed limit that's for the motorway exit. Same problem as with point 2. 4) In situations where there are no speed limit signs, it would use the map data - and even though this was a brand new, March 2019 vehicle, it had no idea that a stretch of motorway next to my house is not limited to 50mph anymore, and hasn't been for the last 2 years. In practice, I had to keep overriding the speed limit chosen by the car constantly, and after few days I switched it fully off as it led to me nearly shitting my pants as the car hit the brakes for seemingly no reason whatsoever few times. And then I have concerns about countries where the speed limit is only valid to the nearest intersection - and the definition of an intersection varies. There are paved roads merging with the main road which are not intersections because the side road leads to private property, and then there are dirt tracks which are intersections because technically it's a public road open to motor traffic. There are no signs to indicate either - the driver is just "supposed to know". It's idiotic, I know. And in some countries(Poland) the speed limit can change as often as 4-5 times in a span of a single kilometre. What's even worse is that there are situations when the speed limit can actually increase(!!!!) the speed limit set in a certain zone(built-up zones have a 50km/h speed limit, but this can be increased by a regular speed limit sign - and then yes, it goes back down(!!!) to 50km/h after an intersection). All of this stuff would be incredibly hard to code into a system like this, and it's one of the reasons why I suspect the proposal made by EU to have automatic speed limiters built into cars will either fail, or people will just keep disabling it altogether, making the whole idea pointless. [0] Here it would think the side road has a speed limit of 50mph, because it would read the wrong sign: https://www.google.pl/maps/@54.9929676,-1.5788994,3a,75y,78.69h,85.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssEpcslIqt97nfVrtZtQYhA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.pl/maps/@54.9929676,-1.5788994,3a,75y,78.... [1] Here for example the 20mph sign is placed at an angle to the road, so the car would read it going past it - and set the adaptive cruise control to 20mph which is incorrect for this street: https://www.google.pl/maps/@55.0074774,-1.615172,3a,41.3y,90.87h,86.39t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5WsAtaR3hv8QI1b5PG371w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.pl/maps/@55.0074774,-1.615172,3a,41.3y,90... Same here: https://www.google.pl/maps/@55.0071611,-1.6214135,3a,75y,240.68h,82.02t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9NH6vTDZaU5smuIYopqBMQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.pl/maps/@55.0071611,-1.6214135,3a,75y,240...
kristopolous 7y ago
I'm only half joking when I call for a bloodlust dial with a murder level on it. The core idea is to continue to grant enough agency to the operator that they are held responsible as long as the vehicle faithfully executed the intent. The tongue and cheek bloodsport throttle in the real world would instead be a proactive user choice of how much human guidance and interaction is required (solving the handoff problem, for example, 1 minute automatic, 1 minute manual or an automatic system that you'll need to irritatingly press a button every few minutes to stay engaged). If a user options for "zero engagement" (let's pretend they're drunk or just got out of surgery), then there has to be a visceral experience of the underlying risks; a constant beeping and flashing, some real sense of urgency and warning. I know it's a luxury product but cars are machines of carnage where death is never more than a mistake and mere seconds away. That reality should supercede. This may be eventually removed, but a system like this would honestly solve all the current issues
- noxToken 7y ago
  >an automatic system that you'll need to irritatingly press a button every few minutes to stay engaged Just like trains! There is an alarm system just as you describe. After a certain amount of time, there are audio and visual warnings for the engineer. The engineer must engage the switch to "snooze" the alarm, and in the event that the engineer does not engage, the train automatically cuts power to throttle to brake. I'm not sure flashing lights and a klaxon are what we would want in a car, but maybe beeping akin to lane assist that quickly increases in volume + a light on the dash would be a good start.
  - Domenic_S 7y ago
    It works that way in a Tesla. If the system doesn't detect your hands on the wheel (using rotational force on the steering wheel as a proxy), first a message appears on the screen, then seconds later the screen flashes blue, then a few seconds later the volume on the radio is lowered and the car beeps at you urgently. If you still don't touch the wheel, a few seconds later the hazard lights come on and the car slows to a stop.
londons_explore 7y ago
> I am surprised there are not laws to have cars alert you to the fact you['re] speeding Europe is mandating this (combined with limiting) for new cars soon. It will be possible to override 'temporarily'.

CydeWeys 7y ago

It seems inevitable that autonomous vehicles will be required to obey speed limits in the future. The question in my mind is will it be the same speed limits as for humans?

tastroder 7y ago
I don't see how that is even a question without 100% autonomy and proven above-human performance, human drivers on the same roads still have to react so different speed limits don't seem to make much sense.
- nightski 7y ago
  Well seeing as you can get a ticket for going at or under the speed limit in some major cities because it is a hazard that might be interesting.
  - perl4ever 7y ago
    I believe the law in NY state uses the phrase "impeding traffic" and doesn't reference the speed limit. So (although I am not a lawyer) I imagine you could violate it whether you were going under, at, or over, the limit.
gambiting 7y ago
Yes, because: 1) I don't believe we'll go "autonomous cars only" for predictable future. I can see that happening on limited set of streets(say, strict city centres), but not overall. Mostly because I think requiring everyone to buy an autonomous car is ridiculous, and then there are cars made even right now that I can totally see people driving in 20/30/50 years from now. We'll always allow manual cars on the road, just like we still allow horses - it just became so rare that in practice it's not an issue to have an animal with no safety features on the road next to modern motor vehicles. 2) there will always be users of the road that cannot be made automous - motorcycles. Unless you believe that motorcycles will be banned, but I don't think that will happen. So yes, I think any speed limits of the future will be set for humans first and foremost. I do look forward to those speed limits to be revised up though - cars are far safer and more efficient at higher speeds than they were few decades ago, and yet speed limits have never been revised to reflect that. US is particularly bad at this, with empty stretches of straight road having a speed limit of 50mph for instance. That should have been fixed years ago.
cesarb 7y ago
We already have different speed limits for different users in some highways (for instance, one major highway near where I live has a limit in some places of 110 km/h for cars and 90 km/h for trucks and buses), so there's precedent. But I believe that, at least initially, speed limits for self-driving vehicles will be lower.

gambiting 7y ago

>>I am surprised there are not laws to have cars alert you to the fact your speeding for the systems that can read speed limit signs in addition to have current maps. Well, there are systems that do this. Many new cars have speed limit sign recognition built in and they will display the current limit on the dashboard(and sometimes show you an icon indicating that the vehicle thinks you are speeding). The reason why this is not more aggressive is because it's only seemingly a simple problem - in reality it's far far from it. In my experience of driving around the EU - I had a Mercedes CLS(brand new 2019 model) with adaptive cruise control and speed limit signs recognition, and while amazing when it worked, it worked maybe 50% of the time. Issues I noticed: 1) it kept detecting speed limit signs on roads parallel to the one I was on [0] 2) it kept detecting speed limit signs on side roads - leading to actual dangerous situations, because I was on a 50mph road, going past a 20mph side street and the car would suddenly hit the brakes because it detected a 20mph speed limit. That's 10000% unnacceptable in a production vehicle. [1] 3) it kept reading speed limit signs on the slip roads leaving the motorway - so you're doing 70mph on the motorway, and it suddenly reads the 50mph speed limit that's for the motorway exit. Same problem as with point 2. 4) In situations where there are no speed limit signs, it would use the map data - and even though this was a brand new, March 2019 vehicle, it had no idea that a stretch of motorway next to my house is not limited to 50mph anymore, and hasn't been for the last 2 years. In practice, I had to keep overriding the speed limit chosen by the car constantly, and after few days I switched it fully off as it led to me nearly shitting my pants as the car hit the brakes for seemingly no reason whatsoever few times. And then I have concerns about countries where the speed limit is only valid to the nearest intersection - and the definition of an intersection varies. There are paved roads merging with the main road which are not intersections because the side road leads to private property, and then there are dirt tracks which are intersections because technically it's a public road open to motor traffic. There are no signs to indicate either - the driver is just "supposed to know". It's idiotic, I know. And in some countries(Poland) the speed limit can change as often as 4-5 times in a span of a single kilometre. What's even worse is that there are situations when the speed limit can actually increase(!!!!) the speed limit set in a certain zone(built-up zones have a 50km/h speed limit, but this can be increased by a regular speed limit sign - and then yes, it goes back down(!!!) to 50km/h after an intersection). All of this stuff would be incredibly hard to code into a system like this, and it's one of the reasons why I suspect the proposal made by EU to have automatic speed limiters built into cars will either fail, or people will just keep disabling it altogether, making the whole idea pointless. [0] Here it would think the side road has a speed limit of 50mph, because it would read the wrong sign: https://www.google.pl/maps/@54.9929676,-1.5788994,3a,75y,78.69h,85.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssEpcslIqt97nfVrtZtQYhA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.pl/maps/@54.9929676,-1.5788994,3a,75y,78.... [1] Here for example the 20mph sign is placed at an angle to the road, so the car would read it going past it - and set the adaptive cruise control to 20mph which is incorrect for this street: https://www.google.pl/maps/@55.0074774,-1.615172,3a,41.3y,90.87h,86.39t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5WsAtaR3hv8QI1b5PG371w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.pl/maps/@55.0074774,-1.615172,3a,41.3y,90... Same here: https://www.google.pl/maps/@55.0071611,-1.6214135,3a,75y,240.68h,82.02t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9NH6vTDZaU5smuIYopqBMQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.pl/maps/@55.0071611,-1.6214135,3a,75y,240...

kristopolous 7y ago

I'm only half joking when I call for a bloodlust dial with a murder level on it. The core idea is to continue to grant enough agency to the operator that they are held responsible as long as the vehicle faithfully executed the intent. The tongue and cheek bloodsport throttle in the real world would instead be a proactive user choice of how much human guidance and interaction is required (solving the handoff problem, for example, 1 minute automatic, 1 minute manual or an automatic system that you'll need to irritatingly press a button every few minutes to stay engaged). If a user options for "zero engagement" (let's pretend they're drunk or just got out of surgery), then there has to be a visceral experience of the underlying risks; a constant beeping and flashing, some real sense of urgency and warning. I know it's a luxury product but cars are machines of carnage where death is never more than a mistake and mere seconds away. That reality should supercede. This may be eventually removed, but a system like this would honestly solve all the current issues

noxToken 7y ago
>an automatic system that you'll need to irritatingly press a button every few minutes to stay engaged Just like trains! There is an alarm system just as you describe. After a certain amount of time, there are audio and visual warnings for the engineer. The engineer must engage the switch to "snooze" the alarm, and in the event that the engineer does not engage, the train automatically cuts power to throttle to brake. I'm not sure flashing lights and a klaxon are what we would want in a car, but maybe beeping akin to lane assist that quickly increases in volume + a light on the dash would be a good start.
- Domenic_S 7y ago
  It works that way in a Tesla. If the system doesn't detect your hands on the wheel (using rotational force on the steering wheel as a proxy), first a message appears on the screen, then seconds later the screen flashes blue, then a few seconds later the volume on the radio is lowered and the car beeps at you urgently. If you still don't touch the wheel, a few seconds later the hazard lights come on and the car slows to a stop.

londons_explore 7y ago

> I am surprised there are not laws to have cars alert you to the fact you['re] speeding Europe is mandating this (combined with limiting) for new cars soon. It will be possible to override 'temporarily'.