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A very experienced criminal lawyer who used to be a federal prosecutor very strongly disagrees with your assessment[1] & [2] There's a whole collection of well

A very experienced criminal lawyer who used to be a federal prosecutor very strongly disagrees with your assessment[1] & [2] There's a whole collection of well reasoned opinions why you should really shut the fuck up, when confronted with police[3] [1] https://www.popehat.com/2013/05/01/shut-up-i-explained-mostly-pointlessly/ https://www.popehat.com/2013/05/01/shut-up-i-explained-mostl... [2] https://www.popehat.com/2011/12/01/reminder-oh-wont-you-please-shut-up/ https://www.popehat.com/2011/12/01/reminder-oh-wont-you-plea... [3] https://www.popehat.com/tag/shut-up/ https://www.popehat.com/tag/shut-up/

mirimir 7y ago
Look, this was basically a traffic stop. And the guy handled it well. If he had gone the "don't talk to police" route, he'd have spent time in jail. And your examples are mostly about people who had done something wrong.
- CaptainZapp 7y ago
  He actually answers this very point:[1] So, I say, don't talk to the cops. Ask to speak with an attorney, and get competent advice before you answer the cops' questions. Are there mundane situations in which you might rationally decide to talk to the cops — say, if a neighbor's house is burglarized, and they come to ask if you saw anything? Sure. But you should view each interaction with the cops with an extreme caution bordering on paranoia, as you would handle a dangerous wild animal. When you talk to a cop, you are talking to someone who is often privileged to kill you with complete impunity, someone whose claims about what you said during your interaction — however fantastical — will likely be accepted uncritically by the system even if the particular cop is a proven serial liar. Even the most mundane interaction carries the potential for life-altering disaster. [1] https://www.popehat.com/2014/01/15/the-privilege-to-shut-up/ https://www.popehat.com/2014/01/15/the-privilege-to-shut-up/
  - mirimir 7y ago
    If the cop shoots you, it won't matter what you said or didn't say. And in TFA: > According to ABC Action News, these affected customers ended up in handcuffs and in the back of a police car in the majority of the cases. A few people were even met with the business ends of a firearm and were taken into custody forcefully after disagreeing with police. So with routine traffic stops, playing it cool is almost always the best bet. I've experienced scores of them, mostly for speeding, but some for reckless driving. And a couple for evading. And I've never gotten more than tickets. One of those evading stops involved a county-wide APB :) I just said something like "Hey, I just saw "Dawn of the Dead", and got scared". Which was almost the truth, in that it was hypomania. They almost impounded the car, but eventually we all decided that it was funny.
    - chrisseaton 7y ago
      > So with routine traffic stops, playing it cool is almost always the best bet. I've experienced scores of them Why do American police stop people so often? Every American here seems to have experience of being stopped and acts like it’s a super normal thing. I live in the UK and I’m don’t think I’ve ever even spoken to an on-duty police officer in my life. They don’t just cruise around stopping cars here.
      - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
        We haven't gone as far down the 1984 path as you have so we have still have human cops write tickets instead of using speed cameras. It also depends a lot on your area. Where I live the cops to "real problems" ratio is pretty good. I'm basically free to go a safe and reasonable speed regardless of the speed limit. I'd have to do something really flagrant to get pulled over for it. In the wealthier cities and suburbs that the people of HN tend to live in you have many more bored cops looking for trouble where there is little to be found so they spend more time extracting revenue from motorists and making fishing stops.
        chrisseaton 7y ago
        But I hear about the police stopping people for things like tail lights in the US? Or in other comments people are talking about being stopped because they're driving a suspiciously cheap car in an expensive area? The police just don't seem to stop people here in the UK unless there's something seriously wrong. As I said elsewhere, I've never seen a tail light out ever, but it seems to be a common thing for normal people to be stopped for in the US? And of course speed cameras don't bother you if you don't speed in the first place, so they don't catch people unless they're doing something wrong.
  - mirimir 7y ago
    Having the rental agreement is quite mundane, no?
dustingetz 7y ago
attorney recommends approach resulting in attorney fees
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  Attorney recommends approach that makes their job easy and results in happy customer. It's the same reason mechanics tell you do do preventive maintenance even though they make way more money swapping out large components.
- saltminer 7y ago
  That's assuming the police actually intend to arrest you. When questioned by police, you cannot talk yourself out of an arrest. If they already have evidence, they just want a confession to give the prosecutor a slam dunk case, but if they do not have evidence, saying you won't speak without a lawyer present will usually cause them to move on to the next person on their list, and you won't spend a dime on counsel or time in jail. A lawyer helps ensure the innocent don't get screwed by a mistaken witness, a vindictive prosecutor, or a corrupt cop, and that the guilty don't get railroaded with a laundry list of bullshit charges. Money spent on a lawyer will generally pay dividends when you consider the cost of false convictions and false arrest - losing your job, bills going unpaid while you're behind bars (and the interest, penalties, evictions, and reposessions resulting from them), damage to your credit, trying to find a new apartment with an eviction on your record, having to get a new car, etc. All these factors combine to make people who go to jail far worse off when they get out, regardless of their guilt.
heyoni 7y ago
Cool. You just went to “imright.com” and found a guy to back up your claim. Now try finding the opposite that and see how many results you come up with.
- mirimir 7y ago
  I really should know better. I typically argue "don't talk to cops" when stuff like this comes up. And if I were SWATed right now, I'd hit the UPS panic button, and politely request a call to my lawyer. Because there's really nothing for me to say that would help me. But if I get pulled over for some traffic offense, or even because some glitch has flagged my vehicle, I'm going to politely cooperate. While remaining noncommittal, of course. That's what FindLaw recommends.[0] However:[1] > Remain silent if arrested. If your traffic stop turns into an arrest, do not say anything to the police other than requesting an attorney. The police may try to get to volunteer information but refuse to say anything.[10] 0) https://traffic.findlaw.com/traffic-stops/what-to-do-during-traffic-stops.html https://traffic.findlaw.com/traffic-stops/what-to-do-during-... 1) https://www.wikihow.com/Answer-Questions-During-a-Traffic-Stop https://www.wikihow.com/Answer-Questions-During-a-Traffic-St...
  - CaptainZapp 7y ago
    And do not consent to a search, if I may add.

mirimir 7y ago

Look, this was basically a traffic stop. And the guy handled it well. If he had gone the "don't talk to police" route, he'd have spent time in jail. And your examples are mostly about people who had done something wrong.

CaptainZapp 7y ago
He actually answers this very point:[1] So, I say, don't talk to the cops. Ask to speak with an attorney, and get competent advice before you answer the cops' questions. Are there mundane situations in which you might rationally decide to talk to the cops — say, if a neighbor's house is burglarized, and they come to ask if you saw anything? Sure. But you should view each interaction with the cops with an extreme caution bordering on paranoia, as you would handle a dangerous wild animal. When you talk to a cop, you are talking to someone who is often privileged to kill you with complete impunity, someone whose claims about what you said during your interaction — however fantastical — will likely be accepted uncritically by the system even if the particular cop is a proven serial liar. Even the most mundane interaction carries the potential for life-altering disaster. [1] https://www.popehat.com/2014/01/15/the-privilege-to-shut-up/ https://www.popehat.com/2014/01/15/the-privilege-to-shut-up/
- mirimir 7y ago
  If the cop shoots you, it won't matter what you said or didn't say. And in TFA: > According to ABC Action News, these affected customers ended up in handcuffs and in the back of a police car in the majority of the cases. A few people were even met with the business ends of a firearm and were taken into custody forcefully after disagreeing with police. So with routine traffic stops, playing it cool is almost always the best bet. I've experienced scores of them, mostly for speeding, but some for reckless driving. And a couple for evading. And I've never gotten more than tickets. One of those evading stops involved a county-wide APB :) I just said something like "Hey, I just saw "Dawn of the Dead", and got scared". Which was almost the truth, in that it was hypomania. They almost impounded the car, but eventually we all decided that it was funny.
  - chrisseaton 7y ago
    > So with routine traffic stops, playing it cool is almost always the best bet. I've experienced scores of them Why do American police stop people so often? Every American here seems to have experience of being stopped and acts like it’s a super normal thing. I live in the UK and I’m don’t think I’ve ever even spoken to an on-duty police officer in my life. They don’t just cruise around stopping cars here.
    - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
      We haven't gone as far down the 1984 path as you have so we have still have human cops write tickets instead of using speed cameras. It also depends a lot on your area. Where I live the cops to "real problems" ratio is pretty good. I'm basically free to go a safe and reasonable speed regardless of the speed limit. I'd have to do something really flagrant to get pulled over for it. In the wealthier cities and suburbs that the people of HN tend to live in you have many more bored cops looking for trouble where there is little to be found so they spend more time extracting revenue from motorists and making fishing stops.
      - chrisseaton 7y ago
        But I hear about the police stopping people for things like tail lights in the US? Or in other comments people are talking about being stopped because they're driving a suspiciously cheap car in an expensive area? The police just don't seem to stop people here in the UK unless there's something seriously wrong. As I said elsewhere, I've never seen a tail light out ever, but it seems to be a common thing for normal people to be stopped for in the US? And of course speed cameras don't bother you if you don't speed in the first place, so they don't catch people unless they're doing something wrong.
- mirimir 7y ago
  Having the rental agreement is quite mundane, no?

dustingetz 7y ago

attorney recommends approach resulting in attorney fees

dsfyu404ed 7y ago
Attorney recommends approach that makes their job easy and results in happy customer. It's the same reason mechanics tell you do do preventive maintenance even though they make way more money swapping out large components.
saltminer 7y ago
That's assuming the police actually intend to arrest you. When questioned by police, you cannot talk yourself out of an arrest. If they already have evidence, they just want a confession to give the prosecutor a slam dunk case, but if they do not have evidence, saying you won't speak without a lawyer present will usually cause them to move on to the next person on their list, and you won't spend a dime on counsel or time in jail. A lawyer helps ensure the innocent don't get screwed by a mistaken witness, a vindictive prosecutor, or a corrupt cop, and that the guilty don't get railroaded with a laundry list of bullshit charges. Money spent on a lawyer will generally pay dividends when you consider the cost of false convictions and false arrest - losing your job, bills going unpaid while you're behind bars (and the interest, penalties, evictions, and reposessions resulting from them), damage to your credit, trying to find a new apartment with an eviction on your record, having to get a new car, etc. All these factors combine to make people who go to jail far worse off when they get out, regardless of their guilt.

heyoni 7y ago

Cool. You just went to “imright.com” and found a guy to back up your claim. Now try finding the opposite that and see how many results you come up with.

mirimir 7y ago
I really should know better. I typically argue "don't talk to cops" when stuff like this comes up. And if I were SWATed right now, I'd hit the UPS panic button, and politely request a call to my lawyer. Because there's really nothing for me to say that would help me. But if I get pulled over for some traffic offense, or even because some glitch has flagged my vehicle, I'm going to politely cooperate. While remaining noncommittal, of course. That's what FindLaw recommends.[0] However:[1] > Remain silent if arrested. If your traffic stop turns into an arrest, do not say anything to the police other than requesting an attorney. The police may try to get to volunteer information but refuse to say anything.[10] 0) https://traffic.findlaw.com/traffic-stops/what-to-do-during-traffic-stops.html https://traffic.findlaw.com/traffic-stops/what-to-do-during-... 1) https://www.wikihow.com/Answer-Questions-During-a-Traffic-Stop https://www.wikihow.com/Answer-Questions-During-a-Traffic-St...
- CaptainZapp 7y ago
  And do not consent to a search, if I may add.