5 ms·

Is it really debatable about "who" left the garbage on the ground? Even if something only lasts a couple years, do we still want biodegrading trash littering e

Is it really debatable about "who" left the garbage on the ground? Even if something only lasts a couple years, do we still want biodegrading trash littering everything? (we have raw food products right now, I wouldn't want those on the beach either...)

NeedMoreTea 7y ago
Oh come on. It's abundantly clear that placing blame and expectation entirely on the shoulders of consumers is bollocks. Humans drop litter - just look at any festival, concert, or sports match. When it was your granddad it was mostly paper bags, maybe wrapped in newspaper, maybe a few crown corks. The glass got carefully taken home as there was a hefty deposit on those beer bottles! Now it's knee-deep single use everywhere. That hasn't changed as you look at poorer countries, or back into the past. What has changed is extensive industry lobbying pretending it's not fucking obvious and working to abolish deposit and return schemes, and use of far more benign materials - like glass. It's as bad as tobacco or asbestos all over again. The same plastic industry that fucking lobbied the government against suggestions that plastic packaging should contain a third recycled plastic. Not only should it be outright illegal, countless industry's execs are deserving of lengthy spells in prison or a law that says you can chuck used plastic in their mansion's garden. :)
- RobertRoberts 7y ago
  There are plenty of places in the world where littering is not socially acceptable and happens less than other places. What is the difference between these places? I think it's the people, not the material their garbage is made of.
  - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
    Well, there's Singapore and...? That's about it. Of course as well as extreme and draconian legislation, like banning gum, they're a tiny city-state. Yet Singapore employs vast numbers of cleaners and street sweepers clearing up - which surely shouldn't be necessary? Far more per-capita than any Western city. So even they seem to recognise it will happen anyway.
    - jaredklewis 7y ago
      Add Japan to the list. Littering is extremely rare. When traveling, I've been impressed by the cleanliness of Zurich, Copenhagen, Helsinki, and several cities in Germany. If as a society we can't do something as simple as not throw garbage on the ground, I think we have a very bleak future.
      - kwhitefoot 7y ago
        And Scandinavia. Plus here in Norway people actually pick up what litter there is either just casually when out for a walk or in organized gangs set up by sports clubs and so on. The kommune (local council) pays for this to be done to clean up shorelines etc. Britain is far and away the worst country I have ever been to for litter even though it is much better than it used to be. Of course one thing that helps here is that every drinks bottle or can carries a deposit (roughly 10 to 20 pence sterling) that can be redeemed at any supermarket.
      - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
        Never visited Japan, but when I have been in Germany, Denmark and Sweden (nearest I've been to Finland!) they seemed to employ more cleaning - or at least more noticeably - than I expect to see in say modern day UK. I do notice, because UK and many other places are bleak in terms of litter compared to what I remember from childhood and early adulthood, in both extent and type. Nowhere has been nearly as bad about litter as the US though. I haven't visited for well over a decade so maybe they got better. A vast transformation of the amount of packaging and type along with far fewer bins (who the hell thought that a good idea?) and cleaners, gardeners, and people mowing verges. All of which now seem to go by the benchmark "as little as we can get away with". Now add the disowning of any part of blame by business and producers as I mentioned originally. We certainly used to accept that some would always happen and employed enough to make sure the place stayed nice regardless, and the tidier places still seem to. We also presumed reuse far more often, and systems were built to expect that. We also have a different attitude - more accepting of litter, though not as bad as in the eighties and early nineties when apparently no one in the UK gave a shit, and it was everywhere. Amsterdam, Stockholm and Paris have changed similarly, though none as much as here. Paris is perhaps worst of those.
  - lostlogin 7y ago
    That stuff matters, but of far greater importance is the volume of plastic made. We make too much. It’s not particularly hard to reduce your usage a lot, but I think that’s coming at it from the wrong end. The manufacturers need to be incentivised to do better. Carrot and stick, with the stick getting bigger over time.
    - Liquid_Fire 7y ago
      In Japan everything is overpackaged using ridiculous amounts of plastic (more so than in Europe, for example), and yet people don't litter. I think it's important to tackle the issue from both ends.
      - TeMPOraL 7y ago
        > and yet people don't litter. I don't buy it. See CydeWeys's comments around this thread. Also, having lots of people cleaning the streets only makes it look like there's little littering. > I think it's important to tackle the issue from both ends. Sure. Thing is, tackling it from the corporate end will be ridiculously more effective than trying to instill new societal norms.
        RobertRoberts 7y ago
        1. There are countries where littering is "expected" and a normal part of society. (I've seen this culture in the US, they will dump their trash directly in the street) 2. There are countries where littering is both "illegal" and socially "unacceptable". (it's generally shameful to litter) Which countries will have less litter if corporations are incentivized to change their products or make less stuff?
        RealityVoid 7y ago
        I am not a US citizen but take offence at your statement that "littering is "expected" and a normal part of society" simply because you've seen someone do it. I am pretty sure you can find examples of littering in even the most strict of cultures. Especially when people believe they can easily get away with it.
  - titzer 7y ago
    > where littering is not socially acceptable and happens less than other places. It's great that there are places where littering is much less due to social norms. But it's not zero. People litter. Period. To a first approximation, humans can be modeled as points wandering around on a map, and at each timestep there is some nonzero probability they will just drop garbage on the ground. This is true the world over, in every single country I've been, on essentially every hiking trail, no matter how remote or inaccessible. If you were to have a heatmap of litter the world over, it would very closely approximate the simple heatmap of where people have been. Just look at any stretch of highway. Unless it has just been cleaned up by a very thorough cleanup crew, you will find trash. And this is where people are riding around in vehicles that could as well just keep their trash in the backseat. People go out of their way to throw that shit out the window. People can't even get trash into a fricking trash can. It will literally be sitting on the ground next to a trash can. People are trash monkeys. You can knock one or two orders of magnitude off the litter problem with education, societal norms, fines, etc. But people are trash monkeys, and whereever they go, they fucking litter. It's as inescapable as nuclear decay. It's just a function of probability.
    - TeMPOraL 7y ago
      > But people are trash monkeys, and whereever they go, they fucking litter. It's as inescapable as nuclear decay. It's just a function of probability. When you talk about large populations, a lot of things normally considered individual responsibility suddenly become a function of probability. That's why I believe in many cases we should shift responsibility from individuals to organizations at the other end of a transaction. E.g. if you know that roughly 5% of casino gamblers end up addicted and in life-ruining debt, and 0.1% of gamblers end up dying or killing people because of that, you can't open a new casino and shield yourself behind "it's the people who can't control themselves". You knew the probabilistic model, you used it to profit, you're responsible for some deaths and for ruining people's lives. That's IMO doubly important if the probabilistic models has incentive knobs that you control.
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    Law and/or religion. I.e. well-enforced top-down rules. I sincerely doubt there's any difference in people.
- easytiger 7y ago
  > It's abundantly clear that placing blame and expectation entirely on the shoulders of consumers is bollocks. Humans drop litter That statement is false. Not all humans drop litter. In the west it is widely taught as wrong, often punishable by fines. Find me the person who states they should have a right to litter please. Not to mention the fact that biogradable packagi\ ng does little to nothing by way of helping littered refuse. It will have to be collected anyway. There is no philosophy whereby you can excuse the individual action in this case except when trying to justify a wide range of other things as the basis of a broken polemic. Your last sentiment in that post entirely confirms this. > Not only should it be outright illegal, countless industry's execs are deserving of lengthy spells in prison or a law that says you can chuck used plastic in their mansion's garden. :)
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    Even in the most well-behaved country, everyone will drop some litter at some point - even if through hurry or accident. When you multiply "once every thousand opportunities" by city's population density, you still get a lot of litter. Add to that people who're drunk and people who simply don't give a fuck, add random spillage (e.g. wind knocking trashcans over or pulling trash out of them), and you get a visible fraction of litter simply, probabilistically caused by just so much trash being produced.
  - CydeWeys 7y ago
    Defense in depth is a useful concept for a lot more than just security. Yes, of course people shouldn't litter. But some will anyway, and even in the unlikely event that no one on Earth litters ever again, plenty of trash will still escape from trash cans, trash trucks, etc., especially on windy days. So the answer is we need defense in depth against litter. Littering should of course be curtailed to the maximum extent possible, but the litter itself should not last indefinitely upon escaping into the environment. It should degrade in a reasonable amount of time, or at least be totally inert and non-disruptive to animals and the environment (which plastic is not). So you're both right. All available measures should be taken, so that combined, the optimal result is achieved.
  - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
- username444 7y ago
  The consumer IS the problem. Coca Cola can manufacture better bottles IF the consumer were willing to pay for it. But they aren't. Would you pay twice the price for the same coke, but in a glass bottle? It's the consumers demand for cheaper products, and subsequent disposal, that's the issue. We could regulate away plastic bottles and prices would jump, and some portion of the population would rightly protest that it's the poor who suffer.
dirkc 7y ago
Sometimes people litter by accident. On many hikes I've picked up things which have either fallen out of a backpack - like a still sealed energy drink - or was forgotten there - like a jacket.
- RobertRoberts 7y ago
  Of course, but if this was the only litter, or the majority of it, that would be great. I was taught from a young age not to litter, so are my kids. It's a simple idea that's "free" and can be used everywhere to stop litter today.

NeedMoreTea 7y ago

Oh come on. It's abundantly clear that placing blame and expectation entirely on the shoulders of consumers is bollocks. Humans drop litter - just look at any festival, concert, or sports match. When it was your granddad it was mostly paper bags, maybe wrapped in newspaper, maybe a few crown corks. The glass got carefully taken home as there was a hefty deposit on those beer bottles! Now it's knee-deep single use everywhere. That hasn't changed as you look at poorer countries, or back into the past. What has changed is extensive industry lobbying pretending it's not fucking obvious and working to abolish deposit and return schemes, and use of far more benign materials - like glass. It's as bad as tobacco or asbestos all over again. The same plastic industry that fucking lobbied the government against suggestions that plastic packaging should contain a third recycled plastic. Not only should it be outright illegal, countless industry's execs are deserving of lengthy spells in prison or a law that says you can chuck used plastic in their mansion's garden. :)

RobertRoberts 7y ago
There are plenty of places in the world where littering is not socially acceptable and happens less than other places. What is the difference between these places? I think it's the people, not the material their garbage is made of.
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
  Well, there's Singapore and...? That's about it. Of course as well as extreme and draconian legislation, like banning gum, they're a tiny city-state. Yet Singapore employs vast numbers of cleaners and street sweepers clearing up - which surely shouldn't be necessary? Far more per-capita than any Western city. So even they seem to recognise it will happen anyway.
  - jaredklewis 7y ago
    Add Japan to the list. Littering is extremely rare. When traveling, I've been impressed by the cleanliness of Zurich, Copenhagen, Helsinki, and several cities in Germany. If as a society we can't do something as simple as not throw garbage on the ground, I think we have a very bleak future.
    - kwhitefoot 7y ago
      And Scandinavia. Plus here in Norway people actually pick up what litter there is either just casually when out for a walk or in organized gangs set up by sports clubs and so on. The kommune (local council) pays for this to be done to clean up shorelines etc. Britain is far and away the worst country I have ever been to for litter even though it is much better than it used to be. Of course one thing that helps here is that every drinks bottle or can carries a deposit (roughly 10 to 20 pence sterling) that can be redeemed at any supermarket.
    - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
      Never visited Japan, but when I have been in Germany, Denmark and Sweden (nearest I've been to Finland!) they seemed to employ more cleaning - or at least more noticeably - than I expect to see in say modern day UK. I do notice, because UK and many other places are bleak in terms of litter compared to what I remember from childhood and early adulthood, in both extent and type. Nowhere has been nearly as bad about litter as the US though. I haven't visited for well over a decade so maybe they got better. A vast transformation of the amount of packaging and type along with far fewer bins (who the hell thought that a good idea?) and cleaners, gardeners, and people mowing verges. All of which now seem to go by the benchmark "as little as we can get away with". Now add the disowning of any part of blame by business and producers as I mentioned originally. We certainly used to accept that some would always happen and employed enough to make sure the place stayed nice regardless, and the tidier places still seem to. We also presumed reuse far more often, and systems were built to expect that. We also have a different attitude - more accepting of litter, though not as bad as in the eighties and early nineties when apparently no one in the UK gave a shit, and it was everywhere. Amsterdam, Stockholm and Paris have changed similarly, though none as much as here. Paris is perhaps worst of those.
- lostlogin 7y ago
  That stuff matters, but of far greater importance is the volume of plastic made. We make too much. It’s not particularly hard to reduce your usage a lot, but I think that’s coming at it from the wrong end. The manufacturers need to be incentivised to do better. Carrot and stick, with the stick getting bigger over time.
  - Liquid_Fire 7y ago
    In Japan everything is overpackaged using ridiculous amounts of plastic (more so than in Europe, for example), and yet people don't litter. I think it's important to tackle the issue from both ends.
    - TeMPOraL 7y ago
      > and yet people don't litter. I don't buy it. See CydeWeys's comments around this thread. Also, having lots of people cleaning the streets only makes it look like there's little littering. > I think it's important to tackle the issue from both ends. Sure. Thing is, tackling it from the corporate end will be ridiculously more effective than trying to instill new societal norms.
      - RobertRoberts 7y ago
        1. There are countries where littering is "expected" and a normal part of society. (I've seen this culture in the US, they will dump their trash directly in the street) 2. There are countries where littering is both "illegal" and socially "unacceptable". (it's generally shameful to litter) Which countries will have less litter if corporations are incentivized to change their products or make less stuff?
        RealityVoid 7y ago
        I am not a US citizen but take offence at your statement that "littering is "expected" and a normal part of society" simply because you've seen someone do it. I am pretty sure you can find examples of littering in even the most strict of cultures. Especially when people believe they can easily get away with it.
- titzer 7y ago
  > where littering is not socially acceptable and happens less than other places. It's great that there are places where littering is much less due to social norms. But it's not zero. People litter. Period. To a first approximation, humans can be modeled as points wandering around on a map, and at each timestep there is some nonzero probability they will just drop garbage on the ground. This is true the world over, in every single country I've been, on essentially every hiking trail, no matter how remote or inaccessible. If you were to have a heatmap of litter the world over, it would very closely approximate the simple heatmap of where people have been. Just look at any stretch of highway. Unless it has just been cleaned up by a very thorough cleanup crew, you will find trash. And this is where people are riding around in vehicles that could as well just keep their trash in the backseat. People go out of their way to throw that shit out the window. People can't even get trash into a fricking trash can. It will literally be sitting on the ground next to a trash can. People are trash monkeys. You can knock one or two orders of magnitude off the litter problem with education, societal norms, fines, etc. But people are trash monkeys, and whereever they go, they fucking litter. It's as inescapable as nuclear decay. It's just a function of probability.
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    > But people are trash monkeys, and whereever they go, they fucking litter. It's as inescapable as nuclear decay. It's just a function of probability. When you talk about large populations, a lot of things normally considered individual responsibility suddenly become a function of probability. That's why I believe in many cases we should shift responsibility from individuals to organizations at the other end of a transaction. E.g. if you know that roughly 5% of casino gamblers end up addicted and in life-ruining debt, and 0.1% of gamblers end up dying or killing people because of that, you can't open a new casino and shield yourself behind "it's the people who can't control themselves". You knew the probabilistic model, you used it to profit, you're responsible for some deaths and for ruining people's lives. That's IMO doubly important if the probabilistic models has incentive knobs that you control.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  Law and/or religion. I.e. well-enforced top-down rules. I sincerely doubt there's any difference in people.
easytiger 7y ago
> It's abundantly clear that placing blame and expectation entirely on the shoulders of consumers is bollocks. Humans drop litter That statement is false. Not all humans drop litter. In the west it is widely taught as wrong, often punishable by fines. Find me the person who states they should have a right to litter please. Not to mention the fact that biogradable packagi\ ng does little to nothing by way of helping littered refuse. It will have to be collected anyway. There is no philosophy whereby you can excuse the individual action in this case except when trying to justify a wide range of other things as the basis of a broken polemic. Your last sentiment in that post entirely confirms this. > Not only should it be outright illegal, countless industry's execs are deserving of lengthy spells in prison or a law that says you can chuck used plastic in their mansion's garden. :)
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  Even in the most well-behaved country, everyone will drop some litter at some point - even if through hurry or accident. When you multiply "once every thousand opportunities" by city's population density, you still get a lot of litter. Add to that people who're drunk and people who simply don't give a fuck, add random spillage (e.g. wind knocking trashcans over or pulling trash out of them), and you get a visible fraction of litter simply, probabilistically caused by just so much trash being produced.
- CydeWeys 7y ago
  Defense in depth is a useful concept for a lot more than just security. Yes, of course people shouldn't litter. But some will anyway, and even in the unlikely event that no one on Earth litters ever again, plenty of trash will still escape from trash cans, trash trucks, etc., especially on windy days. So the answer is we need defense in depth against litter. Littering should of course be curtailed to the maximum extent possible, but the litter itself should not last indefinitely upon escaping into the environment. It should degrade in a reasonable amount of time, or at least be totally inert and non-disruptive to animals and the environment (which plastic is not). So you're both right. All available measures should be taken, so that combined, the optimal result is achieved.
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
username444 7y ago
The consumer IS the problem. Coca Cola can manufacture better bottles IF the consumer were willing to pay for it. But they aren't. Would you pay twice the price for the same coke, but in a glass bottle? It's the consumers demand for cheaper products, and subsequent disposal, that's the issue. We could regulate away plastic bottles and prices would jump, and some portion of the population would rightly protest that it's the poor who suffer.

dirkc 7y ago

Sometimes people litter by accident. On many hikes I've picked up things which have either fallen out of a backpack - like a still sealed energy drink - or was forgotten there - like a jacket.

RobertRoberts 7y ago
Of course, but if this was the only litter, or the majority of it, that would be great. I was taught from a young age not to litter, so are my kids. It's a simple idea that's "free" and can be used everywhere to stop litter today.