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Thank goodness. Finally, somebody with some clout is pointing fingers at the largest contributor to garbage... the corporations who produce it. I live in Cana

Thank goodness. Finally, somebody with some clout is pointing fingers at the largest contributor to garbage... the corporations who produce it. I live in Canada and Tim Horton's cups literally litter every street corner in every big city in our country. I have always thought that they should be responsible for the cleanup of those cups. It is absolutely their fault that their customers are throwing their products onto our ground. Why should our overburdened local governments carry the cost of picking up a profitable business' garbage?

dd36 7y ago
Producer responsibility is a well-studied economic concept. It’s a shame progress like that halted a long time ago.
briandear 7y ago
Shouldn’t the consumer be responsible for throwing their trash away properly? The local government is a government of the local people: if the people would stop throwing stuff on the ground, there wouldn’t be so much trash to pick up. That burden is created by the local people. Should paint companies be held responsible for graffiti?
- microcolonel 7y ago
  This is the HN state of mind, where the other is responsible for 100% of the world's problems, and individuals are completely ruled by passion and reptilian instinct.
  - dang 7y ago
    Could you please stop posting unsubstantive flamebait to HN so we don't have to ban you again? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- ethbro 7y ago
  Yes. But unfortunately, it's infeasible to penalize them directly. And the panopticon required to do so would cause more harm than benefit. Ergo, we target upstream as the least bad solution.
- osrec 7y ago
  Ultimately, the responsibility lies with the corporation if they are instilling a polluting culture that benefits them. There are edge cases in this argument of course, but in my opinion, a large number of companies produce mountains of wasteful unrecyclable packaging in the name of brand-building or low cost. They use this to bolster their business, and therefore they should be ultimately responsible for cleaning it up.
  - cco 7y ago
    Your thesis is that the main driver for plastic water bottles or to go coffee cups is branding? I don't think that passes the smell test.
    - osrec 7y ago
      Not quite, but it's a low cost convenience that makes people spend on coffee more readily. If they were made to bring their own cup to take coffee out (or some other less polluting method), I bet it would hurt sales significantly.
      - stephen_g 7y ago
        Most cafes in Australia give a discount (up to 50c) for bringing your reusable cup. It’s very popular and very effective. Of course, disposable cups are still available.
  - AmericanChopper 7y ago
    If you wanted to talk about the costs of disposing of packaging, then there’s some valid points you could make. But to say producers are responsible for littering is insane. There’s nothing about Coca Cola as a company, or the way their products are packaged, or the way they sell them that would lead me to throw the packaging on the ground rather than in the trash can. Anybody that litters is wholly responsible for that act. If you wanna discuss what happens to the packaging after it’s thrown in the trash or the recycling bin, and who bears the costs, then there’s arguments you can make for the producer to have additional responsibilities, but it’s not their job to make sure the consumer doesn’t litter.
- markdown 7y ago
  > The local government is a government of the local people And that government, knowing that relying on individuals hasn't worked, still needs to find a way to solve the problem. A possible solution is to make the corporation responsible for the trash they produce. Once this happens, the corporation will begin to explore options such as rewarding customers for returning used cups, providing reusable cups, and even employing people to pick up any of their cups littered throughout the city.
- anonymous5133 7y ago
  Yes, absolutely. We as a culture need to emphasize people to pick up their trash and be responsible for their own litter. Lots of other culture emphasize this and you rarely see trash on the ground. Trash on the ground is a direct result of the culture saying "who cares if I toss trash on the ground."
yostrovs 7y ago
The solution from Tim Hortons point of view would be to stop putting their name on disposable coffee cups.
koube 7y ago
I don't think corporations are solely to blame. In Japan they use a lot of plastic packaging[0], and have a lack of public rubbish bins[1], yet they don't litter[2]. Can we not hold customers accountable as well for not disposing of their garbage properly, as they do in Japan? [0]: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/xd573w/japans-excessive-packaging-fetish-299 https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/xd573w/japans-excessive-p... [1]: https://jpninfo.com/54373 https://jpninfo.com/54373 [2]: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/07/why-japanese-dont-litter/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/07/why-japanese-dont-lit...
- PetahNZ 7y ago
  They also fine you up to $5,000 and give you community service if you litter.
  - anonymous5133 7y ago
    Same goes for Singapore. Crime to littler and also the culture there values cleanliness of the city. When I was there I almost never saw trash on the ground, ever. I once saw a plastic cup get blown off some lady's table and the next person who was working on the street who saw it picked it up and tossed it in the trash bin. Public trash bins are everywhere. Absolutely a world-class city in every sense of it.
    - ethbro 7y ago
      Jetlagged in Tokyo one morning (maybe 4:30 AM local), I watched a lady open her eatery. She cleaned and readied everything inside, swept the front curb of her shop, then proceeded to perfectly sweep the ~10' wide sidewalk in front of her place to the street's edge. How Tokyo lives with its hyperdensity suddenly made sense.
  - ethbro 7y ago
    From an individual's point of view: they also fine you up to $5,000 and give you community service if you get caught littering.
metaphor 7y ago
> Why should our overburdened local governments carry the cost of picking up a profitable business' garbage? As an outsider looking in, perhaps because local governments are largely funded by taxpayers, and taxpayers are ultimately the root cause of the litter? Consider the status quo of litter in countries like Japan and Singapore. I think if the problem is to be effectively solved, things need to happen on 3 fronts: local government that establishes effective law/infrastructure, companies with cognizance that take meaningful action, and a population with the right cultural values.
Zenst 7y ago
"It is absolutely their fault that their customers are throwing their products onto our ground." WAT! A company is not responsible for it's irresponsible consumers! Also their no scapegoat for irresponsible people who litter. That is the crux of the issue here. Rallying against a large corporation because people litter with their product is effectively excusing people who litter. That is wrong - don't go there.
- dingaling 7y ago
  > A company is not responsible for it's irresponsible consumers! No but they are responsible for foisting externalities onto society in order to save a few cents per transaction. If they only sold coffee in steel thermal capped mugs, for $5 each, then the litter problem would evaporate. But that would require more expensive logistics and storage and transactional overhad.
slovette 7y ago
So by that logic, if I sold you a car and you abandoned it in the middle of a busy freeway, it would then be my fault? I’m not on the side of big business, ever really. But this is insane logic (today it’s all to common too). The PEOPLE doing the littering are the problem, if it’s not a coke can it’s something else. Assign responsibility where it’s deserved. It easy to blame big money and business these days for the shortcomings of people. Make it a crime with not only a hefty fine, but demanded personal time on community service. Some people don’t care about money, but everyone cares about their time. It works just fine for the Japanese and in Singapore.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
frosted-flakes 7y ago
I've been thinking about this lately. How hard would it be for Tim Hortons to implement a deposit system for re-usable plastic cups? A deposit cup could cost two dollars, and every time you buy coffee you hand in your dirty cup and they give you a clean one. To encourage people to use the deposit cups, charge 10 cents each for disposable cups. If you want your two dollars back, just return the cup. It wouldn't slow down drive throughs at all, because unlike using your own re-usable cups, deposit cups can be filled before you get to the window. They would need to develop some standard language to make ordering simple, but people would get used to it fast enough, especially if they make deposit cups the default after a while. Tim Hortons is on every street corner, so it already has a strong network effect, making something like this feasible (I bet most Tims customers are regulars). The cups would be standard, so an automated cup washer wouldn't be too difficult. They could also be semi-insulated, which would be a huge improvement over those flimsy cardboard sleeves or double cups (which is usually what happens).

dd36 7y ago

Producer responsibility is a well-studied economic concept. It’s a shame progress like that halted a long time ago.

briandear 7y ago

Shouldn’t the consumer be responsible for throwing their trash away properly? The local government is a government of the local people: if the people would stop throwing stuff on the ground, there wouldn’t be so much trash to pick up. That burden is created by the local people. Should paint companies be held responsible for graffiti?

microcolonel 7y ago
This is the HN state of mind, where the other is responsible for 100% of the world's problems, and individuals are completely ruled by passion and reptilian instinct.
- dang 7y ago
  Could you please stop posting unsubstantive flamebait to HN so we don't have to ban you again? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
ethbro 7y ago
Yes. But unfortunately, it's infeasible to penalize them directly. And the panopticon required to do so would cause more harm than benefit. Ergo, we target upstream as the least bad solution.
osrec 7y ago
Ultimately, the responsibility lies with the corporation if they are instilling a polluting culture that benefits them. There are edge cases in this argument of course, but in my opinion, a large number of companies produce mountains of wasteful unrecyclable packaging in the name of brand-building or low cost. They use this to bolster their business, and therefore they should be ultimately responsible for cleaning it up.
- cco 7y ago
  Your thesis is that the main driver for plastic water bottles or to go coffee cups is branding? I don't think that passes the smell test.
  - osrec 7y ago
    Not quite, but it's a low cost convenience that makes people spend on coffee more readily. If they were made to bring their own cup to take coffee out (or some other less polluting method), I bet it would hurt sales significantly.
    - stephen_g 7y ago
      Most cafes in Australia give a discount (up to 50c) for bringing your reusable cup. It’s very popular and very effective. Of course, disposable cups are still available.
- AmericanChopper 7y ago
  If you wanted to talk about the costs of disposing of packaging, then there’s some valid points you could make. But to say producers are responsible for littering is insane. There’s nothing about Coca Cola as a company, or the way their products are packaged, or the way they sell them that would lead me to throw the packaging on the ground rather than in the trash can. Anybody that litters is wholly responsible for that act. If you wanna discuss what happens to the packaging after it’s thrown in the trash or the recycling bin, and who bears the costs, then there’s arguments you can make for the producer to have additional responsibilities, but it’s not their job to make sure the consumer doesn’t litter.
markdown 7y ago
> The local government is a government of the local people And that government, knowing that relying on individuals hasn't worked, still needs to find a way to solve the problem. A possible solution is to make the corporation responsible for the trash they produce. Once this happens, the corporation will begin to explore options such as rewarding customers for returning used cups, providing reusable cups, and even employing people to pick up any of their cups littered throughout the city.
anonymous5133 7y ago
Yes, absolutely. We as a culture need to emphasize people to pick up their trash and be responsible for their own litter. Lots of other culture emphasize this and you rarely see trash on the ground. Trash on the ground is a direct result of the culture saying "who cares if I toss trash on the ground."

yostrovs 7y ago

The solution from Tim Hortons point of view would be to stop putting their name on disposable coffee cups.

koube 7y ago

I don't think corporations are solely to blame. In Japan they use a lot of plastic packaging[0], and have a lack of public rubbish bins[1], yet they don't litter[2]. Can we not hold customers accountable as well for not disposing of their garbage properly, as they do in Japan? [0]: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/xd573w/japans-excessive-packaging-fetish-299 https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/xd573w/japans-excessive-p... [1]: https://jpninfo.com/54373 https://jpninfo.com/54373 [2]: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/07/why-japanese-dont-litter/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/07/why-japanese-dont-lit...

PetahNZ 7y ago
They also fine you up to $5,000 and give you community service if you litter.
- anonymous5133 7y ago
  Same goes for Singapore. Crime to littler and also the culture there values cleanliness of the city. When I was there I almost never saw trash on the ground, ever. I once saw a plastic cup get blown off some lady's table and the next person who was working on the street who saw it picked it up and tossed it in the trash bin. Public trash bins are everywhere. Absolutely a world-class city in every sense of it.
  - ethbro 7y ago
    Jetlagged in Tokyo one morning (maybe 4:30 AM local), I watched a lady open her eatery. She cleaned and readied everything inside, swept the front curb of her shop, then proceeded to perfectly sweep the ~10' wide sidewalk in front of her place to the street's edge. How Tokyo lives with its hyperdensity suddenly made sense.
- ethbro 7y ago
  From an individual's point of view: they also fine you up to $5,000 and give you community service if you get caught littering.

metaphor 7y ago

> Why should our overburdened local governments carry the cost of picking up a profitable business' garbage? As an outsider looking in, perhaps because local governments are largely funded by taxpayers, and taxpayers are ultimately the root cause of the litter? Consider the status quo of litter in countries like Japan and Singapore. I think if the problem is to be effectively solved, things need to happen on 3 fronts: local government that establishes effective law/infrastructure, companies with cognizance that take meaningful action, and a population with the right cultural values.

Zenst 7y ago

"It is absolutely their fault that their customers are throwing their products onto our ground." WAT! A company is not responsible for it's irresponsible consumers! Also their no scapegoat for irresponsible people who litter. That is the crux of the issue here. Rallying against a large corporation because people litter with their product is effectively excusing people who litter. That is wrong - don't go there.

dingaling 7y ago
> A company is not responsible for it's irresponsible consumers! No but they are responsible for foisting externalities onto society in order to save a few cents per transaction. If they only sold coffee in steel thermal capped mugs, for $5 each, then the litter problem would evaporate. But that would require more expensive logistics and storage and transactional overhad.

slovette 7y ago

So by that logic, if I sold you a car and you abandoned it in the middle of a busy freeway, it would then be my fault? I’m not on the side of big business, ever really. But this is insane logic (today it’s all to common too). The PEOPLE doing the littering are the problem, if it’s not a coke can it’s something else. Assign responsibility where it’s deserved. It easy to blame big money and business these days for the shortcomings of people. Make it a crime with not only a hefty fine, but demanded personal time on community service. Some people don’t care about money, but everyone cares about their time. It works just fine for the Japanese and in Singapore.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

frosted-flakes 7y ago

I've been thinking about this lately. How hard would it be for Tim Hortons to implement a deposit system for re-usable plastic cups? A deposit cup could cost two dollars, and every time you buy coffee you hand in your dirty cup and they give you a clean one. To encourage people to use the deposit cups, charge 10 cents each for disposable cups. If you want your two dollars back, just return the cup. It wouldn't slow down drive throughs at all, because unlike using your own re-usable cups, deposit cups can be filled before you get to the window. They would need to develop some standard language to make ordering simple, but people would get used to it fast enough, especially if they make deposit cups the default after a while. Tim Hortons is on every street corner, so it already has a strong network effect, making something like this feasible (I bet most Tims customers are regulars). The cups would be standard, so an automated cup washer wouldn't be too difficult. They could also be semi-insulated, which would be a huge improvement over those flimsy cardboard sleeves or double cups (which is usually what happens).