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As a current student, I'm actually surprised by this. Maybe I just hang out with evil people, but I don't get the impression most young programmers care that mu

As a current student, I'm actually surprised by this. Maybe I just hang out with evil people, but I don't get the impression most young programmers care that much about ethics. Or they claim they do, but then the 6 figure salary, cushy benefits and signing bonus wins them over. Perhaps there's other reasons? I do joke with my friend who works at Bloomberg that the "evil" finance view has now flipped completely. Bloomberg is a pretty ethical company compared to Facebook, Google, etc.

bendoernberg 7y ago
Why do you hang out with people who don't care about ethics?
- _hardwaregeek 7y ago
  Fair question. I'd like to think my close friends are ethical people, although it's not like I've seen them do the trolley problem. I'd categorize the people who would accept a Facebook (or even Palantir) offer in a second as casual acquaintances. As for why I'd be casual acquaintances with people who don't care about ethics, well, sometimes you can hang out with people who you don't trust completely.
meesles 7y ago
What you think you want while in classes and the shifting realities once you enter the workforce and be pretty night-and-day. Personally I would have entertained the idea at working at a "Big 4"-type company out of school knowing that they were ethically opposed to me. I guess mostly because the name on a resume is worth multiple other jobs in some scenarios and gives you an advantage over your peers. Just a few years later, a 6-figure salary doesn't seem that outrageous and unique to those big corporations. Now that the difference is only in the $10s of thousands, these decisions become a little more nuanced and uncertain. Besides that, once you hit the high 5-figures, money becomes less and less of a driver in your life unless you are in desperate need due to your circumstances. My point is that I think fresh graduates will put aside their ethical qualms because they don't yet know their worth and place in the workforce. That can change pretty quick. That being said, plenty of people just don't care, and that's why these companies still have thousands of developers. It's easy to be blissfully ignorant of your contributions to privacy degeneration and corporate takeovers of our lives when "all you do" is write some React components or speed up some data pipelines. The executives and managers are the ones who will really need to reckon with their consciences, knowing they implemented all these nasty programs.
gspetr 7y ago
Age is a proxy for putting value into such concepts as "ethics". When you're more or less senior and have your basic needs met, then you can afford to be picky on what you work. Fresh grads might not care because it takes to know evil to know good (see the story of the original sin and Tree of the knowledge of good and evil), and work experience is like a separate life experience. Heck, I've heard a theory that you should only be counting programming years as life years, i.e. if they haven't been programming for 18 years, then they aren't adults in the world of software. And the funny thing is, once you're at least a teenager by this definition, then you start thinking that they might actually be onto something...
- zestyping 7y ago
  > When you're more or less senior and have your basic needs met, then you can afford to be picky on what you work. If you start from there, it follows that countries with poor social support systems will tend to generate less ethical workers and less ethical companies. I grew up in Canada. When I came to California, I had zero debt. That made it relatively easy for me to choose ethical (even altruistic!) places to work starting from very early in my career. Imagine how different the entire technology landscape would be if most American computer science grads had the same flexibility.
- JohnFen 7y ago
  > When you're more or less senior and have your basic needs met, then you can afford to be picky on what you work. You can afford it a fresh entrant to the industry as well. Jobs are plentiful and there is competition for software devs.
hn_throwaway_99 7y ago
> Or they claim they do, but then the 6 figure salary, cushy benefits and signing bonus wins them over. But the issue is that top recruits can get a 6 figure salary, cushy benefits and a signing bonus from Netflix or Google or Amazon or AirBnB etc. etc. It's still easy to at least to pretend to be moral of you can shun Facebook as an employer but don't need to give anything up to do so.
- _hardwaregeek 7y ago
  Yeah, but you're assuming they have a counteroffer that's Netflix, Google or Amazon. Sure, some people get 2-3 offers, but I'd bet it's more common to get 1-2. Not out of skill or anything, just because the FAANG hiring process is random and arbitrary.
dilyevsky 7y ago
It’s not just ethics - they have shit wlb and cut-throat culture. If you top it off with mountains of tech debt due to above and brain-dead hiring practices it’s not that surprising they have trouble hiring despite huge compensation.
michaelgrosner2 7y ago
I work in finance (a trading firm, not a bank). In a way it's freeing to admit to yourself and to your coworkers that all you really care about is making money. No one's deluded thinking they're changing the world by selling options like FAANGs think they are by harvesting personal data. It's not like we're making the world better but we're not actively harming it.
dontbenebby 7y ago
Ironically working for a bank is probably often more moral / does more good than Google. Keeping people's money safe is a very real service. People complain about CC interchange fees, but it costs ~1-2% to process cash as well. (Safes, hiring armored trucks to pick it up, etc). Not all of finance is swapping debt like a commodity til the economy crashes and forclosing on people who had some bad luck. Allowing people to use their money conveniently and securely is arguably bringing more value to the world than helping run psyops to convince people to buy things they don't actually need. People need checking, savings, and credit card accounts and they need them to be secure and reliable
- username90 7y ago
  "Keeping people's money safe is a very real service." Banks primary objective is not to handle transactions but to invest others money in as risky and profitable ventures as legally allowed. As such you are not their customer, you are their product, just like when you use useful free Google or Facebook products such as messaging, document editing, friend connections, search, maps etc.
  - dontbenebby 7y ago
    Depends on the bank. Credit unions don't do this. Neither do "mutual banks" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_savings_bank https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_savings_bank There's usually one or the other in pretty much every decent sized city. My credit union doesn't have a lot of fancy features but it has shared branching (can pull out money at other CUs), ATM access at most 7/11s, and zero cost for a basic checking account that can receive direct deposit, with an online bill pay that can even mail a physical check to whoever I want. Even larger banks sometimes aren't publicly traded. (
Yizahi 7y ago
In my average size telecom company almost nobody cares about privacy, at least it seems so any time I mention anything related or link some article in the chat. Or at least they don't see an issue there. (same with equality problems, but that's different topic) It seems programmers are just an average sample of population.
JohnFen 7y ago
> Or they claim they do, but then the 6 figure salary, cushy benefits and signing bonus wins them over. Which means that they don't care about ethics.

bendoernberg 7y ago

Why do you hang out with people who don't care about ethics?

_hardwaregeek 7y ago
Fair question. I'd like to think my close friends are ethical people, although it's not like I've seen them do the trolley problem. I'd categorize the people who would accept a Facebook (or even Palantir) offer in a second as casual acquaintances. As for why I'd be casual acquaintances with people who don't care about ethics, well, sometimes you can hang out with people who you don't trust completely.

meesles 7y ago

What you think you want while in classes and the shifting realities once you enter the workforce and be pretty night-and-day. Personally I would have entertained the idea at working at a "Big 4"-type company out of school knowing that they were ethically opposed to me. I guess mostly because the name on a resume is worth multiple other jobs in some scenarios and gives you an advantage over your peers. Just a few years later, a 6-figure salary doesn't seem that outrageous and unique to those big corporations. Now that the difference is only in the $10s of thousands, these decisions become a little more nuanced and uncertain. Besides that, once you hit the high 5-figures, money becomes less and less of a driver in your life unless you are in desperate need due to your circumstances. My point is that I think fresh graduates will put aside their ethical qualms because they don't yet know their worth and place in the workforce. That can change pretty quick. That being said, plenty of people just don't care, and that's why these companies still have thousands of developers. It's easy to be blissfully ignorant of your contributions to privacy degeneration and corporate takeovers of our lives when "all you do" is write some React components or speed up some data pipelines. The executives and managers are the ones who will really need to reckon with their consciences, knowing they implemented all these nasty programs.

gspetr 7y ago

Age is a proxy for putting value into such concepts as "ethics". When you're more or less senior and have your basic needs met, then you can afford to be picky on what you work. Fresh grads might not care because it takes to know evil to know good (see the story of the original sin and Tree of the knowledge of good and evil), and work experience is like a separate life experience. Heck, I've heard a theory that you should only be counting programming years as life years, i.e. if they haven't been programming for 18 years, then they aren't adults in the world of software. And the funny thing is, once you're at least a teenager by this definition, then you start thinking that they might actually be onto something...

zestyping 7y ago
> When you're more or less senior and have your basic needs met, then you can afford to be picky on what you work. If you start from there, it follows that countries with poor social support systems will tend to generate less ethical workers and less ethical companies. I grew up in Canada. When I came to California, I had zero debt. That made it relatively easy for me to choose ethical (even altruistic!) places to work starting from very early in my career. Imagine how different the entire technology landscape would be if most American computer science grads had the same flexibility.
JohnFen 7y ago
> When you're more or less senior and have your basic needs met, then you can afford to be picky on what you work. You can afford it a fresh entrant to the industry as well. Jobs are plentiful and there is competition for software devs.

hn_throwaway_99 7y ago

> Or they claim they do, but then the 6 figure salary, cushy benefits and signing bonus wins them over. But the issue is that top recruits can get a 6 figure salary, cushy benefits and a signing bonus from Netflix or Google or Amazon or AirBnB etc. etc. It's still easy to at least to pretend to be moral of you can shun Facebook as an employer but don't need to give anything up to do so.

_hardwaregeek 7y ago
Yeah, but you're assuming they have a counteroffer that's Netflix, Google or Amazon. Sure, some people get 2-3 offers, but I'd bet it's more common to get 1-2. Not out of skill or anything, just because the FAANG hiring process is random and arbitrary.

dilyevsky 7y ago

It’s not just ethics - they have shit wlb and cut-throat culture. If you top it off with mountains of tech debt due to above and brain-dead hiring practices it’s not that surprising they have trouble hiring despite huge compensation.

michaelgrosner2 7y ago

I work in finance (a trading firm, not a bank). In a way it's freeing to admit to yourself and to your coworkers that all you really care about is making money. No one's deluded thinking they're changing the world by selling options like FAANGs think they are by harvesting personal data. It's not like we're making the world better but we're not actively harming it.

dontbenebby 7y ago

Ironically working for a bank is probably often more moral / does more good than Google. Keeping people's money safe is a very real service. People complain about CC interchange fees, but it costs ~1-2% to process cash as well. (Safes, hiring armored trucks to pick it up, etc). Not all of finance is swapping debt like a commodity til the economy crashes and forclosing on people who had some bad luck. Allowing people to use their money conveniently and securely is arguably bringing more value to the world than helping run psyops to convince people to buy things they don't actually need. People need checking, savings, and credit card accounts and they need them to be secure and reliable

username90 7y ago
"Keeping people's money safe is a very real service." Banks primary objective is not to handle transactions but to invest others money in as risky and profitable ventures as legally allowed. As such you are not their customer, you are their product, just like when you use useful free Google or Facebook products such as messaging, document editing, friend connections, search, maps etc.
- dontbenebby 7y ago
  Depends on the bank. Credit unions don't do this. Neither do "mutual banks" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_savings_bank https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_savings_bank There's usually one or the other in pretty much every decent sized city. My credit union doesn't have a lot of fancy features but it has shared branching (can pull out money at other CUs), ATM access at most 7/11s, and zero cost for a basic checking account that can receive direct deposit, with an online bill pay that can even mail a physical check to whoever I want. Even larger banks sometimes aren't publicly traded. (

Yizahi 7y ago

In my average size telecom company almost nobody cares about privacy, at least it seems so any time I mention anything related or link some article in the chat. Or at least they don't see an issue there. (same with equality problems, but that's different topic) It seems programmers are just an average sample of population.

JohnFen 7y ago

> Or they claim they do, but then the 6 figure salary, cushy benefits and signing bonus wins them over. Which means that they don't care about ethics.