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Only... other countries have different systems with different outcomes. They treat mental illness, have safety nets, and don't push folks out of prison as ill-e

Only... other countries have different systems with different outcomes. They treat mental illness, have safety nets, and don't push folks out of prison as ill-equipped to deal with the world. We (Americans) can do better. Fewer people in prison, focusing on reintegration into society, proper facilities and health care (including mental health). And so on. But we (Americans) aren't willing to do these things, even if it is cheaper overall and has better outcomes for both the inmates and their families. A politician will claim these policies are "soft on crime" and putting rapists on the streets and that these people should pay dearly for whatever crimes they've done and they get votes.

rayiner 7y ago
I question whether we can do better. I don’t think pointing to other countries is helpful. The murder rate in the US was 10x higher than in the U.K. even at the turn of the 20th century. Long before ideas of prison as a place for rehabilitation, which came about in the 1950s and 1960s. It’s important to remember that American incarceration is a lagging trend, not a leading trend. Incarceration rates were flat for a long time before trending up in the 1970s. That followed about a decade behind a long period of increase in crime that started in the 1960s and lasted through the 1990s.
- lkrubner 7y ago
  In 1900 the northern USA states had a murder rate that was the same as most European countries. The elevated murder rate in the USA came entirely from the sky high murder rates in the ex slave states.
- Broken_Hippo 7y ago
  It's a big order: We'd honestly have to put an actual safety net in for everyone for it to work well, but we can start by treating people like humans, having safe prison environments, and making sure folks have a chance. Change laws so the stupid thing one did at 19 doesn't have lasting effects at 24. Make sure parole officers have flexible hours that allow folks to have jobs. No one should have to commit crimes to pay their fees. It isn't worth looking at the crime rates, as we've never tried. Crime rates are more than just prison, but the right prison system is one avenue to reduce repeat crimes.
jmts 7y ago
I think culturally (western, not explicitly American, unsure about elsewhere) there is a bias toward people being incapable of change, that their actions in the past define who they are, and this probably results in people just continuing to do more of the same if they are unable to escape it. Consider when children make a mistake or do something silly - often they are chastised or punished rather than educated and forgiven. Because of this we learn to lie about, hide, or pretend to misremember mistakes in a bid to mitigate the punishment we know we're about to receive. Later in life we're remembered by the things we've done in the past, and if you've done something bad enough (or even just silly or ignorant) it'll hang over you like a shadow for the rest of your life. Even if you personally feel like you've grown and moved on, there is always the risk that someone will dig up your past and throw it at you. In the end we live in fear of our past and feel controlled by it and that makes it harder to look into the future to become the person we might like to be. Those with sufficiently unfortunate pasts are increasingly rejected by society so they have no alternative but to continue adding to their unfortunate past because the communities that contributed to their past are the only ones that accept them. Personally accepting that the mistakes you make don't define you as a person can go a long way to freeing yourself from some of the burden, but culturally it still lingers. Ultimately though there is a huge difference between shoplifting when you were a dumb kid, and becoming a serial killer. The threshold for redemption clearly varies with the severity of the crime, however it seems to me that in many cases we simply reject any chance of redemption outright and this probably hurts us more in the long run than it needs to.

rayiner 7y ago

I question whether we can do better. I don’t think pointing to other countries is helpful. The murder rate in the US was 10x higher than in the U.K. even at the turn of the 20th century. Long before ideas of prison as a place for rehabilitation, which came about in the 1950s and 1960s. It’s important to remember that American incarceration is a lagging trend, not a leading trend. Incarceration rates were flat for a long time before trending up in the 1970s. That followed about a decade behind a long period of increase in crime that started in the 1960s and lasted through the 1990s.

lkrubner 7y ago
In 1900 the northern USA states had a murder rate that was the same as most European countries. The elevated murder rate in the USA came entirely from the sky high murder rates in the ex slave states.
Broken_Hippo 7y ago
It's a big order: We'd honestly have to put an actual safety net in for everyone for it to work well, but we can start by treating people like humans, having safe prison environments, and making sure folks have a chance. Change laws so the stupid thing one did at 19 doesn't have lasting effects at 24. Make sure parole officers have flexible hours that allow folks to have jobs. No one should have to commit crimes to pay their fees. It isn't worth looking at the crime rates, as we've never tried. Crime rates are more than just prison, but the right prison system is one avenue to reduce repeat crimes.

jmts 7y ago

I think culturally (western, not explicitly American, unsure about elsewhere) there is a bias toward people being incapable of change, that their actions in the past define who they are, and this probably results in people just continuing to do more of the same if they are unable to escape it. Consider when children make a mistake or do something silly - often they are chastised or punished rather than educated and forgiven. Because of this we learn to lie about, hide, or pretend to misremember mistakes in a bid to mitigate the punishment we know we're about to receive. Later in life we're remembered by the things we've done in the past, and if you've done something bad enough (or even just silly or ignorant) it'll hang over you like a shadow for the rest of your life. Even if you personally feel like you've grown and moved on, there is always the risk that someone will dig up your past and throw it at you. In the end we live in fear of our past and feel controlled by it and that makes it harder to look into the future to become the person we might like to be. Those with sufficiently unfortunate pasts are increasingly rejected by society so they have no alternative but to continue adding to their unfortunate past because the communities that contributed to their past are the only ones that accept them. Personally accepting that the mistakes you make don't define you as a person can go a long way to freeing yourself from some of the burden, but culturally it still lingers. Ultimately though there is a huge difference between shoplifting when you were a dumb kid, and becoming a serial killer. The threshold for redemption clearly varies with the severity of the crime, however it seems to me that in many cases we simply reject any chance of redemption outright and this probably hurts us more in the long run than it needs to.