7 ms·

Can you make an argument why this would be considered about “outcome” for the purpose of conversation?

jwfodnpmhl 7y ago
Can it be called “conversation” at that point?
simple_phrases 7y ago
It doesn't. It falls squarely into the "equality of opportunity" category, but that won't stop ideologues from screaming that the sky is falling.
crazy1van 7y ago
They are imperfect phrases, but generally an equality of opportunity in this case refers to no matter what you look like, what your parents do, how much money you have, if you get a SAT score and GPA above a threshold, you get accepted into the school. Whereas equality of outcome would focus more on who gets in even if it means treating people differently based on what they look look, how much money they have, where they live, etc.
- rexpop 7y ago
  SAT scores and GPA are strongly affected by how much money you have.
  - Erik816 7y ago
    Yes, because intelligent parents tend to make more money. And their children tend to be more intelligent as well.
    - learc83 7y ago
      That's part of it. But even when adjusting for IQ, parental income is highly correlated with success--SAT scores, college admission, lifetime income--however you want to measure it.
    - thaumasiotes 7y ago
      Similarly, the wind is strongly affected by weathervanes.
    - rexpop 7y ago
      Are you sure you're not confusing causation? I can, just off the top of my head, think of several situational variables impacted by wealth, which impact cognitive capacity: - sleep - diet - training - study time
paulddraper 7y ago
They are using neighborhood income level and status to adjust the outcome of the SAT.
wallace_f 7y ago
I grew up in a poor, dangerous neighborhood as a child. Later in my teens I lived in a wealthy suburb with collectible cars in the driveway after my father's startup succeeded. My father was physically abusive, and child services got involved. My father's lawyers sorted things out to get the investigation to stop and drop charges if I lived somewhere else. I unfortunately went into the Troubled Teen industry (which I had definitively no reason to be in other than as part of his lawyers' story blaming me for what happened). That industry is filled with abuse. The day I turned 18 I was pulled from there and struggled with homelessness for a year. It was extremely hard to succeed when you are homeless. Financial aid for university is tied to your childhood guardian's social security number until you are 25, so I was a homeless person, and not eligible for any financial aid. This is just a start. I've never broken any laws or done anything particularly wrong. Did you ever think of my story? Apparently bureaucrats didn't. Also, why should I need permission from some bureaucrats to study from the top degree programs? Shouldn't the goal be the opposite: to expand the best education opportunities to as many people as possible? We have so much wealth and enormous social spending in America, and yet look at our outcomes with homelessness, poverty and suicide...
- metildaa 7y ago
  People shouldn't be viewed as financially coupled to their parents until 25. Our current system is set up to discourage people from furthering their educations, with exorbitant tuition and fees. If you had been in the Netherlands, you'd get a stipend of ~$10k per year when enrolling in school, and other countries have similar systems. UBC in Vancouver, Canada generally pays masters students $30k a year, having had a few friends depart to Canada due to said offer.
cljs-js-eval 7y ago
The adversity score, as far as I can see, gives high scores to students who succeed in worse school districts. While none of the sites reporting on this bothered to link to any kind of official announcement, it looks like this may be a refinement of the tool announced here in 2016: https://secure-media.collegeboard.org/digitalServices/pdf/professionals/data-driven-models-to-understand-environmental-context.pdf https://secure-media.collegeboard.org/digitalServices/pdf/pr... From the college board's description of the tool, it weights applicant scores by the quality of their neighborhood and high school. So a disadvantaged student whose family focused on moving to a neighborhood/school where lots of students succeed is not given a high score in this analysis. The OP had the same opportunity, but because they did the traditional things for a poorer family to encourage their students to succeed (moving to a good school district and sacrificing on the commute) they will be considered a privileged student in this analysis.
- learc83 7y ago
  >The OP had the same opportunity, but because they did the traditional things for a poorer family to encourage their students to succeed (moving to a good school district and sacrificing on the commute) they will be considered a privileged student in this analysis. Compared to the poor students whose parents didn't make those sacrifices, they are privileged.
  - danmaz74 7y ago
    In general, if you make a sacrifice to earn something, that something isn't a privilege.
    - learc83 7y ago
      Your parents making a sacrifice isn't the same thing as you making a sacrifice. If my dad makes a sacrifice by working 100 hours a week to buy me a Maserati, the car is definitely a privilege not something I earned. And yeah, I may have lost out on spending time with my dad, but that wasn't a choice I made, so while it cost me something it wasn't a sacrifice on my part.
mbostleman 7y ago
Because it's an attempt to change the outcomes of the test to make them more equal than they would be otherwise.

Can it be called “conversation” at that point?

It doesn't. It falls squarely into the "equality of opportunity" category, but that won't stop ideologues from screaming that the sky is falling.

crazy1van 7y ago

They are imperfect phrases, but generally an equality of opportunity in this case refers to no matter what you look like, what your parents do, how much money you have, if you get a SAT score and GPA above a threshold, you get accepted into the school. Whereas equality of outcome would focus more on who gets in even if it means treating people differently based on what they look look, how much money they have, where they live, etc.

rexpop 7y ago
SAT scores and GPA are strongly affected by how much money you have.
- Erik816 7y ago
  Yes, because intelligent parents tend to make more money. And their children tend to be more intelligent as well.
  - learc83 7y ago
    That's part of it. But even when adjusting for IQ, parental income is highly correlated with success--SAT scores, college admission, lifetime income--however you want to measure it.
  - thaumasiotes 7y ago
    Similarly, the wind is strongly affected by weathervanes.
  - rexpop 7y ago
    Are you sure you're not confusing causation? I can, just off the top of my head, think of several situational variables impacted by wealth, which impact cognitive capacity: - sleep - diet - training - study time

paulddraper 7y ago

They are using neighborhood income level and status to adjust the outcome of the SAT.

wallace_f 7y ago

I grew up in a poor, dangerous neighborhood as a child. Later in my teens I lived in a wealthy suburb with collectible cars in the driveway after my father's startup succeeded. My father was physically abusive, and child services got involved. My father's lawyers sorted things out to get the investigation to stop and drop charges if I lived somewhere else. I unfortunately went into the Troubled Teen industry (which I had definitively no reason to be in other than as part of his lawyers' story blaming me for what happened). That industry is filled with abuse. The day I turned 18 I was pulled from there and struggled with homelessness for a year. It was extremely hard to succeed when you are homeless. Financial aid for university is tied to your childhood guardian's social security number until you are 25, so I was a homeless person, and not eligible for any financial aid. This is just a start. I've never broken any laws or done anything particularly wrong. Did you ever think of my story? Apparently bureaucrats didn't. Also, why should I need permission from some bureaucrats to study from the top degree programs? Shouldn't the goal be the opposite: to expand the best education opportunities to as many people as possible? We have so much wealth and enormous social spending in America, and yet look at our outcomes with homelessness, poverty and suicide...

metildaa 7y ago
People shouldn't be viewed as financially coupled to their parents until 25. Our current system is set up to discourage people from furthering their educations, with exorbitant tuition and fees. If you had been in the Netherlands, you'd get a stipend of ~$10k per year when enrolling in school, and other countries have similar systems. UBC in Vancouver, Canada generally pays masters students $30k a year, having had a few friends depart to Canada due to said offer.

cljs-js-eval 7y ago

The adversity score, as far as I can see, gives high scores to students who succeed in worse school districts. While none of the sites reporting on this bothered to link to any kind of official announcement, it looks like this may be a refinement of the tool announced here in 2016: https://secure-media.collegeboard.org/digitalServices/pdf/professionals/data-driven-models-to-understand-environmental-context.pdf https://secure-media.collegeboard.org/digitalServices/pdf/pr... From the college board's description of the tool, it weights applicant scores by the quality of their neighborhood and high school. So a disadvantaged student whose family focused on moving to a neighborhood/school where lots of students succeed is not given a high score in this analysis. The OP had the same opportunity, but because they did the traditional things for a poorer family to encourage their students to succeed (moving to a good school district and sacrificing on the commute) they will be considered a privileged student in this analysis.

learc83 7y ago
>The OP had the same opportunity, but because they did the traditional things for a poorer family to encourage their students to succeed (moving to a good school district and sacrificing on the commute) they will be considered a privileged student in this analysis. Compared to the poor students whose parents didn't make those sacrifices, they are privileged.
- danmaz74 7y ago
  In general, if you make a sacrifice to earn something, that something isn't a privilege.
  - learc83 7y ago
    Your parents making a sacrifice isn't the same thing as you making a sacrifice. If my dad makes a sacrifice by working 100 hours a week to buy me a Maserati, the car is definitely a privilege not something I earned. And yeah, I may have lost out on spending time with my dad, but that wasn't a choice I made, so while it cost me something it wasn't a sacrifice on my part.

mbostleman 7y ago

Because it's an attempt to change the outcomes of the test to make them more equal than they would be otherwise.