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Soon we will have SAT advisers suggesting how to game the "adversity score" as well. - Get a summer job "because your family needed money" - Move out of your

Soon we will have SAT advisers suggesting how to game the "adversity score" as well. - Get a summer job "because your family needed money" - Move out of your parents house for a summer "bad living conditions" - Adopt some non-binary gender temporarily "bullied for identifying as x" - CEO dad drops salary to $20k for a year and instead gets stock vesting equivalent "poor family" etc. etc.

_bxg1 7y ago
Oh god. The original idea sounds good on paper, but, oh god.
- theseatoms 7y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law
  - max76 7y ago
    This was a huge theme throughout the television series The Wire. Here is a clip that specifically shows Goodhart's law working in education. https://youtu.be/_ogxZxu6cjM?t=62 https://youtu.be/_ogxZxu6cjM?t=62
jedberg 7y ago
> CEO dad drops salary to $20k for a year and instead gets stock vesting equivalent "poor family" Colleges are pretty wise to this trick. You aren't the first to think of it. Relatedly is legally emancipating a child so they have "no parental support" and get a bunch of grants. That doesn't work either. I suspect the colleges would get good as sussing out all those other tricks too.
- ben_jones 7y ago
  Just like they were able to suss out all the student athletes who didn't actually do anything?
  - jedberg 7y ago
    There will of course be false negatives.
  - graeme 7y ago
    That was bribery. The scheme was to bribe people who normally would do the sussing out.
  - javagram 7y ago
    Considering the FBI busted the ringleader of the scam and a bunch of people are going to jail, this seems like an example of the system working.
    - oh_sigh 7y ago
      The FBI only busted them because a person they were investigating for a completely separate issue told them about this in hopes to get a more lenient sentence. So yes, it is the system working, but we got very lucky the FBI stumbled upon this information.
    - droithomme 7y ago
      As you say, the FBI busted the scam which went on for years (decades?) and the colleges all say they had no idea about it, right? So his claim that the colleges weren't able to suss this out is absolutely correct in 100% of all known cases, right?
- DtnB 7y ago
  its not so much 'sussing out tricks' as a blanket ban on anything that can be abused. My parents made roughly 100k when I was going to school but they were terrible with money and have a lot of children. The 'expected contribution' was actually quite high but I never received anything from my parents at all. Thus, I have much in the way of student loans. Not to take away from your point but the colleges having to work against these sort of tricks has a lot of unintended consequences.
president 7y ago
I can't wait to launch my Adversity Summer Camp startup
- PorterDuff 7y ago
  That's brilliant. There'll be a boom market for Adversity Coaches.
qntty 7y ago
This is already happening. The difference is that it's only happening at elite schools that take a "holistic" approach to admissions already. Now, less elite schools will join in the fun.
xienze 7y ago
None of that’s going to make any difference. Let’s be real here, it’s going to be based on race alone (and perhaps being gay or trans). White or Asian? You don’t suffer any adversity. Black or Hispanic? Congratulations, your score just improved by 200 points. This just sounds like the SAT board doing what school admissions boards already do: decreasing or increasing scores based on race. https://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-adv-asian-race-tutoring-20150222-story.html https://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-adv-asian-rac...
- layoutIfNeeded 7y ago
  How do they determine one’s race in the US? Is there a central database where everyone gets a record at birth? Otherwise what stops me from reporting myself as black?
  - mcphage 7y ago
    Nothing, although if colleges accepted you under the assumption that you reported who you were honestly, and then later found out that you weren’t who you claimed to be, you might find your acceptances revoked.
    - layoutIfNeeded 7y ago
      How would they find out my race? Based on the looks? So they would count Michael Jackson as “white”? What if a person looks white but has black ancestors?
      - mcphage 7y ago
        If you apply for a scholarship based on your heritage, how do they decide if you qualify?
    - prepend 7y ago
      Probably not. I remember a story of someone who did this [0] and nothing happened. I can only imagine the terrifyingly embarrassing situations where people of a race are challenged to prove their race and flip out because they are their race. [0] https://nypost.com/2015/04/12/mindy-kalings-brother-explains-why-he-pretended-to-be-black/ https://nypost.com/2015/04/12/mindy-kalings-brother-explains...
crazygringo 7y ago
The article says: > It would be calculated using 15 factors, like the relative quality of the student’s high school and the crime rate and poverty level of the student’s home neighborhood. The score would not be reported to the student, only to college officials. None of those suggest they're linked to individual actions like your examples are -- and that makes sense since the SAT can know the student's schools and addresses but little else. And I don't think sending your kid to a worse school is gaming the system... because they'll probably do worse.
- SeanAppleby 7y ago
  You could do three years at a great school and then cap off with one year at a bad school to grab the diploma.
  - nostrademons 7y ago
    Shows on your transcript. Presumably would be counted as a great school.
  - lotu 7y ago
    That is going to look like you fucked up horribly at great school and where going to get expelled but managed to avoid it by transfering.
    - WalterSear 7y ago
      Surely you mean "had to leave due to systemic oppression".
- Balgair 7y ago
  Hold up. This adversity score is advertized so that it will help out poorer and more abused students, in an emperical way. But what this is actually telling schools is if the person is rich-ish or not. Basically, can this family pay the bills and are they likely to attend football games and be donating alumni? Call me cynical, but if anything, this is going to further segregate the schools towards the rich-ish. This will give schools a guise under which they can say: 'Look, we're diverse!' But it will allow the space (and the ML inputs) for the schools to maximize profits. I know that you are very unlikely to be able to maximize all diversity at once. Like, admitting more black women may come at the cost of matriculation rates for transgender people, or more Hispanic people in STEM classes may come at the cost of Asian people in humanties courses, etc. Nothing is perfect. But this really feels like a Trojan Horse.
babyslothzoo 7y ago
Nails it, there are so many avenues for abuse with this and they will be abused accordingly.
nostrademons 7y ago
Most of the 15 factors are reported here, 4 paragraphs down: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/adversity-score-sat-exam-college-board-calculate-students-admissions-college-wall-street-journal/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/adversity-score-sat-exam-colleg... "Neighborhood environment will take into account crime rate, poverty rate, housing values and vacancy rate. Family environment will assess what the median income is of where the student's family is from; whether the student is from a single parent household; the educational level of the parents; and whether English is a second language. High school environment will look at factors such as curriculum rigor, free-lunch rate and AP class opportunities." These are hard to game, and in many cases if you do game them it's a "Mission Fucking Accomplished" situation. Most billionaires are not willing to move into a high-crime, high-poverty neighborhood with shitty housing, nor are they willing to put their kids in bad schools with poor people. If they are, great, that neighborhood probably won't stay poor with shitty schools for long.
- leetcrew 7y ago
  > Most billionaires are not willing to move into a high-crime, high-poverty neighborhood with shitty housing sure, but I don't think any existing laws would prevent them from just buying a second house in a bad part of their home town and using that address for applications and I can't see how the College Board could reliably detect this.
  - nostrademons 7y ago
    Your primary residence is listed on your tax returns and determines which school district you're entitled to attend. Misrepresenting it can result in criminal charges, and schools do check: https://whyy.org/segments/the-money-shot-how-school-districts-find-and-prove-residency-fraud/ https://whyy.org/segments/the-money-shot-how-school-district... They'd have a tough time explaining to colleges why their transcript is from Good School District Across Town when they listed their address as Dumpy Neighborhood With Bad Schools.
    - ilamont 7y ago

_bxg1 7y ago

Oh god. The original idea sounds good on paper, but, oh god.

theseatoms 7y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law
- max76 7y ago
  This was a huge theme throughout the television series The Wire. Here is a clip that specifically shows Goodhart's law working in education. https://youtu.be/_ogxZxu6cjM?t=62 https://youtu.be/_ogxZxu6cjM?t=62

jedberg 7y ago

> CEO dad drops salary to $20k for a year and instead gets stock vesting equivalent "poor family" Colleges are pretty wise to this trick. You aren't the first to think of it. Relatedly is legally emancipating a child so they have "no parental support" and get a bunch of grants. That doesn't work either. I suspect the colleges would get good as sussing out all those other tricks too.

ben_jones 7y ago
Just like they were able to suss out all the student athletes who didn't actually do anything?
- jedberg 7y ago
  There will of course be false negatives.
- graeme 7y ago
  That was bribery. The scheme was to bribe people who normally would do the sussing out.
- javagram 7y ago
  Considering the FBI busted the ringleader of the scam and a bunch of people are going to jail, this seems like an example of the system working.
  - oh_sigh 7y ago
    The FBI only busted them because a person they were investigating for a completely separate issue told them about this in hopes to get a more lenient sentence. So yes, it is the system working, but we got very lucky the FBI stumbled upon this information.
  - droithomme 7y ago
    As you say, the FBI busted the scam which went on for years (decades?) and the colleges all say they had no idea about it, right? So his claim that the colleges weren't able to suss this out is absolutely correct in 100% of all known cases, right?
DtnB 7y ago
its not so much 'sussing out tricks' as a blanket ban on anything that can be abused. My parents made roughly 100k when I was going to school but they were terrible with money and have a lot of children. The 'expected contribution' was actually quite high but I never received anything from my parents at all. Thus, I have much in the way of student loans. Not to take away from your point but the colleges having to work against these sort of tricks has a lot of unintended consequences.

president 7y ago

I can't wait to launch my Adversity Summer Camp startup

PorterDuff 7y ago
That's brilliant. There'll be a boom market for Adversity Coaches.

qntty 7y ago

This is already happening. The difference is that it's only happening at elite schools that take a "holistic" approach to admissions already. Now, less elite schools will join in the fun.

xienze 7y ago

None of that’s going to make any difference. Let’s be real here, it’s going to be based on race alone (and perhaps being gay or trans). White or Asian? You don’t suffer any adversity. Black or Hispanic? Congratulations, your score just improved by 200 points. This just sounds like the SAT board doing what school admissions boards already do: decreasing or increasing scores based on race. https://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-adv-asian-race-tutoring-20150222-story.html https://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-adv-asian-rac...

layoutIfNeeded 7y ago
How do they determine one’s race in the US? Is there a central database where everyone gets a record at birth? Otherwise what stops me from reporting myself as black?
- mcphage 7y ago
  Nothing, although if colleges accepted you under the assumption that you reported who you were honestly, and then later found out that you weren’t who you claimed to be, you might find your acceptances revoked.
  - layoutIfNeeded 7y ago
    How would they find out my race? Based on the looks? So they would count Michael Jackson as “white”? What if a person looks white but has black ancestors?
    - mcphage 7y ago
      If you apply for a scholarship based on your heritage, how do they decide if you qualify?
  - prepend 7y ago
    Probably not. I remember a story of someone who did this [0] and nothing happened. I can only imagine the terrifyingly embarrassing situations where people of a race are challenged to prove their race and flip out because they are their race. [0] https://nypost.com/2015/04/12/mindy-kalings-brother-explains-why-he-pretended-to-be-black/ https://nypost.com/2015/04/12/mindy-kalings-brother-explains...

crazygringo 7y ago

The article says: > It would be calculated using 15 factors, like the relative quality of the student’s high school and the crime rate and poverty level of the student’s home neighborhood. The score would not be reported to the student, only to college officials. None of those suggest they're linked to individual actions like your examples are -- and that makes sense since the SAT can know the student's schools and addresses but little else. And I don't think sending your kid to a worse school is gaming the system... because they'll probably do worse.

SeanAppleby 7y ago
You could do three years at a great school and then cap off with one year at a bad school to grab the diploma.
- nostrademons 7y ago
  Shows on your transcript. Presumably would be counted as a great school.
- lotu 7y ago
  That is going to look like you fucked up horribly at great school and where going to get expelled but managed to avoid it by transfering.
  - WalterSear 7y ago
    Surely you mean "had to leave due to systemic oppression".
Balgair 7y ago
Hold up. This adversity score is advertized so that it will help out poorer and more abused students, in an emperical way. But what this is actually telling schools is if the person is rich-ish or not. Basically, can this family pay the bills and are they likely to attend football games and be donating alumni? Call me cynical, but if anything, this is going to further segregate the schools towards the rich-ish. This will give schools a guise under which they can say: 'Look, we're diverse!' But it will allow the space (and the ML inputs) for the schools to maximize profits. I know that you are very unlikely to be able to maximize all diversity at once. Like, admitting more black women may come at the cost of matriculation rates for transgender people, or more Hispanic people in STEM classes may come at the cost of Asian people in humanties courses, etc. Nothing is perfect. But this really feels like a Trojan Horse.

babyslothzoo 7y ago

Nails it, there are so many avenues for abuse with this and they will be abused accordingly.

nostrademons 7y ago

Most of the 15 factors are reported here, 4 paragraphs down: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/adversity-score-sat-exam-college-board-calculate-students-admissions-college-wall-street-journal/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/adversity-score-sat-exam-colleg... "Neighborhood environment will take into account crime rate, poverty rate, housing values and vacancy rate. Family environment will assess what the median income is of where the student's family is from; whether the student is from a single parent household; the educational level of the parents; and whether English is a second language. High school environment will look at factors such as curriculum rigor, free-lunch rate and AP class opportunities." These are hard to game, and in many cases if you do game them it's a "Mission Fucking Accomplished" situation. Most billionaires are not willing to move into a high-crime, high-poverty neighborhood with shitty housing, nor are they willing to put their kids in bad schools with poor people. If they are, great, that neighborhood probably won't stay poor with shitty schools for long.

leetcrew 7y ago
> Most billionaires are not willing to move into a high-crime, high-poverty neighborhood with shitty housing sure, but I don't think any existing laws would prevent them from just buying a second house in a bad part of their home town and using that address for applications and I can't see how the College Board could reliably detect this.
- nostrademons 7y ago
  Your primary residence is listed on your tax returns and determines which school district you're entitled to attend. Misrepresenting it can result in criminal charges, and schools do check: https://whyy.org/segments/the-money-shot-how-school-districts-find-and-prove-residency-fraud/ https://whyy.org/segments/the-money-shot-how-school-district... They'd have a tough time explaining to colleges why their transcript is from Good School District Across Town when they listed their address as Dumpy Neighborhood With Bad Schools.
  - ilamont 7y ago