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Can anyone who knows more about this than me comment on whether buying carbon offsets is more than just a PR move? Props for investment in green energy though.

by qntty 7y ago

wefarrell 7y ago
Carbon accounting is a discipline and there are firms that conduct audits.
- seiferteric 7y ago
  Hypothetically, if someone developed a way to capture carbon, is there a market one could sell carbon credits on? If so, where is it and how do you prove you are providing what people are paying for?
  - hollerith 7y ago
    If no such market exists, then sell the carbon as fuel until a suitable market comes into being.
  - andylynch 7y ago
    Yes - the EU Emissions Trading System (EU ETS) have been running side 2005. Carbon allowances ban be traded on some exchanges - for instance in the UK ICE Europe trades carbon contracts.
  - FrojoS 7y ago
    There is a company doing both http://www.climeworks.com/ http://www.climeworks.com/
  - wefarrell 7y ago
    How do companies that sell shares on public markets prove they are providing what people are paying for? There are independent firms that audit their financial statements.
ghostly_s 7y ago
All carbon offsets are not created equal (in fact, most of them are bogus). There are alternative energy companies in our "deregulated" energy market here in Illinois who will sell you "100% clean electricity" in the form of offsets. These offsets represent things like wind farms in Texas that were built years ago -- buying a "credit" for this electricity does nothing to add new renewable capacity to the grid, remove more carbon from the atmosphere, or change our emissions landscape in any way whatsoever. Credits for new renewable generating capacity one could argue to be a positive thing, but this market is pretty much entirely unregulated now and most of these products are not much more than accounting tricks.
- swsieber 7y ago
  There's only so many offsets to go around though, right? So demand for them _should_ produce demand for new energy if enough of the offset demand... right?
- wlesieutre 7y ago
  > These offsets represent things like wind farms in Texas that were built years ago -- buying a "credit" for this electricity does nothing to add new renewable capacity to the grid, remove more carbon from the atmosphere, or change our emissions landscape in any way whatsoever The producer being able to sell those credits going forward is what made the plant economical to build in the first place. How are other credits for "new renewable capacity" any different? That new plant is going to be producing renewable energy and selling renewable energy credits for long after it gets built. The projected returns from selling those credits is part of the financing they used to build it. If more people are trying to buy RECs, the market value of those RECs goes up, and it enables more producers to invest in new renewable capacity because they'll be able to sell RECs for more money. Of course the additional credits on the market could push prices back down if a lot gets built (woo fucking hoo, that's what we're trying to encourage!), and the market demand for more credits to purchase is also increasing as governments pass requirements for XX% renewable capacity by YYYY year.
  - wlesieutre 7y ago
    More background on these here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_Energy_Certificate_(United_States) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_Energy_Certificate_(... A short summary: 1) A producer gets a REC for putting 1 MWh into the grid from renewable generation. This energy mixes in with all the other energy on the grid, it doesn't go anywhere in particular. 2) The producer sells this REC on the market. 3) The consumer who buys the REC is considered to have purchased renewable energy, either to meet renewable energy requirements or just for their own personal reasons because it's a good thing to do. In 29 states, DC, and PR, they have "Renewable Portfolio Standards" which require electric suppliers to have a certain amount of renewable energy in their production portfolio. They can own this production capacity and make the RECs themselves, or they could burn natural gas and buy a bunch of RECs from a third party, or even a bunch of people with solar panels on their roofs. Beyond those 29 states, people also buy them just to say "We run on clean energy." A friend of mine has an electric car and buys renewable energy to go with it. Did the actual electrons in his car come from a wind turbine? No, but he's helping make wind power more economically viable through the renewable energy credits.
jpalomaki 7y ago
I think it is a PR move - but might be good for us. If there are lots of companies willing to offset their carbon emissions, this creates a market for solutions. And if there's a market, then there's a reason to invest in product development (I'm thinking about carbon capture solutions). Same thing with switching to renewable energy. Higher demand pushes prices up and therefore fuels innovation and development of new projects. I don't see this making any difference for the company itself (except the PR benefits and on the negative side the costs). The real benefits come from actually reducing carbon emissions. It is possible we will in the future have something like a carbon tax. If this happens, companies that have already cut their emissions have an advantage. Also, this can start affecting the share prices already earlier as investors will start counting in the possibility of carbon tax happening. Disclaimer: I have no idea how carbon intensive their production is. In some industries, the actual emissions are meaningless and true carbon opportunities/risks lay elsewhere. In the case of Bosch, it might be for example the switch from developing technology for combustion engines to electric cars that has the real effect.
- Farradfahren 7y ago
  It creates a market for fake solutions and PR-Responsibility Artfull Dodgery. Gambling artificially created rule systems is always easier then following them. Dr Market decided to not treat the source of the problem, but to apply gracious amounts of morphin. Patient is beyond treatment! Next!

Can anyone who knows more about this than me comment on whether buying carbon offsets is more than just a PR move? Props for investment in green energy though.

by qntty 7y ago

Can anyone who knows more about this than me comment on whether buying carbon offsets is more than just a PR move? Props for investment in green energy though.

wefarrell 7y ago

Carbon accounting is a discipline and there are firms that conduct audits.

seiferteric 7y ago
Hypothetically, if someone developed a way to capture carbon, is there a market one could sell carbon credits on? If so, where is it and how do you prove you are providing what people are paying for?
- hollerith 7y ago
  If no such market exists, then sell the carbon as fuel until a suitable market comes into being.
- andylynch 7y ago
  Yes - the EU Emissions Trading System (EU ETS) have been running side 2005. Carbon allowances ban be traded on some exchanges - for instance in the UK ICE Europe trades carbon contracts.
- FrojoS 7y ago
  There is a company doing both http://www.climeworks.com/ http://www.climeworks.com/
- wefarrell 7y ago
  How do companies that sell shares on public markets prove they are providing what people are paying for? There are independent firms that audit their financial statements.

ghostly_s 7y ago

All carbon offsets are not created equal (in fact, most of them are bogus). There are alternative energy companies in our "deregulated" energy market here in Illinois who will sell you "100% clean electricity" in the form of offsets. These offsets represent things like wind farms in Texas that were built years ago -- buying a "credit" for this electricity does nothing to add new renewable capacity to the grid, remove more carbon from the atmosphere, or change our emissions landscape in any way whatsoever. Credits for new renewable generating capacity one could argue to be a positive thing, but this market is pretty much entirely unregulated now and most of these products are not much more than accounting tricks.

swsieber 7y ago
There's only so many offsets to go around though, right? So demand for them _should_ produce demand for new energy if enough of the offset demand... right?
wlesieutre 7y ago
> These offsets represent things like wind farms in Texas that were built years ago -- buying a "credit" for this electricity does nothing to add new renewable capacity to the grid, remove more carbon from the atmosphere, or change our emissions landscape in any way whatsoever The producer being able to sell those credits going forward is what made the plant economical to build in the first place. How are other credits for "new renewable capacity" any different? That new plant is going to be producing renewable energy and selling renewable energy credits for long after it gets built. The projected returns from selling those credits is part of the financing they used to build it. If more people are trying to buy RECs, the market value of those RECs goes up, and it enables more producers to invest in new renewable capacity because they'll be able to sell RECs for more money. Of course the additional credits on the market could push prices back down if a lot gets built (woo fucking hoo, that's what we're trying to encourage!), and the market demand for more credits to purchase is also increasing as governments pass requirements for XX% renewable capacity by YYYY year.
- wlesieutre 7y ago
  More background on these here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_Energy_Certificate_(United_States) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_Energy_Certificate_(... A short summary: 1) A producer gets a REC for putting 1 MWh into the grid from renewable generation. This energy mixes in with all the other energy on the grid, it doesn't go anywhere in particular. 2) The producer sells this REC on the market. 3) The consumer who buys the REC is considered to have purchased renewable energy, either to meet renewable energy requirements or just for their own personal reasons because it's a good thing to do. In 29 states, DC, and PR, they have "Renewable Portfolio Standards" which require electric suppliers to have a certain amount of renewable energy in their production portfolio. They can own this production capacity and make the RECs themselves, or they could burn natural gas and buy a bunch of RECs from a third party, or even a bunch of people with solar panels on their roofs. Beyond those 29 states, people also buy them just to say "We run on clean energy." A friend of mine has an electric car and buys renewable energy to go with it. Did the actual electrons in his car come from a wind turbine? No, but he's helping make wind power more economically viable through the renewable energy credits.

jpalomaki 7y ago

I think it is a PR move - but might be good for us. If there are lots of companies willing to offset their carbon emissions, this creates a market for solutions. And if there's a market, then there's a reason to invest in product development (I'm thinking about carbon capture solutions). Same thing with switching to renewable energy. Higher demand pushes prices up and therefore fuels innovation and development of new projects. I don't see this making any difference for the company itself (except the PR benefits and on the negative side the costs). The real benefits come from actually reducing carbon emissions. It is possible we will in the future have something like a carbon tax. If this happens, companies that have already cut their emissions have an advantage. Also, this can start affecting the share prices already earlier as investors will start counting in the possibility of carbon tax happening. Disclaimer: I have no idea how carbon intensive their production is. In some industries, the actual emissions are meaningless and true carbon opportunities/risks lay elsewhere. In the case of Bosch, it might be for example the switch from developing technology for combustion engines to electric cars that has the real effect.

Farradfahren 7y ago
It creates a market for fake solutions and PR-Responsibility Artfull Dodgery. Gambling artificially created rule systems is always easier then following them. Dr Market decided to not treat the source of the problem, but to apply gracious amounts of morphin. Patient is beyond treatment! Next!