3 ms·

This is part of why I object to the dilution of the term "right" with the modern, European concept of creating new rights to suit a political agenda. Basic lib

by mises 7y ago

This is part of why I object to the dilution of the term "right" with the modern, European concept of creating new rights to suit a political agenda. Basic liberties are a very narrow category as laid out in the Bill of Rights. "Owning your data" is not a right in the sense in which your parent comment was speaking, certainly not in the same way as the Right to Bear Arms. In other words, there is a big difference between the classical sense of a "right" as a moral first principle on which a nation was founded and the modern sense of a "right" as a political expediency which a politician wishes to give to candidates.

StavrosK 7y ago
Are you saying that the social context when the bill of rights was drafted is the Only True Context and anything that happened before or after didn't actually lead to the need for more rights? Because you can't have a right to bear arms when no arms exist.
ben_w 7y ago
> Basic liberties are a very narrow category as laid out in the Bill of Rights. "Owning your data" is not a right in the sense in which your parent comment was speaking, certainly not in the same way as the Right to Bear Arms. I’ve seen this attitude to the second amendment many times. You might regard it as a fundamental and inalienable right (even though it’s in an amendment and therefore, y’know, amendable), but so far as I can see most of the rest of my [1] world think America is basically insane to even want that. [1] i.e. anecdata, as I can’t find stats one way or the other.
pushpop 7y ago
The distinction only exists because you chose it to. Both were drafted by politicians. The only real difference is one was written hundreds of years ago to address problems that existed then and the other was written for a modern era to address problems we face currently.
- pushpop 7y ago
  So some nut job thinks owning guns is vital for modern society? Good luck using that hand gun to overthrow your government (which is what the 2nd amendment exists for) while they roll in with their heavy armoured tanks and drones. I’m sure your bullets will make a dent while they’re firing missiles at you ;)
lm28469 7y ago
> European concept of creating new rights to suit a political agenda. Compared to ? The US ? > Right to Bear Arms. Why are Americans so emotional about that ? How is that a basic liberty ? What about the right not to die of diabetes because you can't afford insulin thanks to the unregulated "free market" they call "health industry" ? The right not to have > 70% of your population overweight ? The right to have a proper political system which isn't "democratic" in name only. The right now to be systematically spied on by 3 letters agencies ? It sounds like anything could happen but as long as the right to own gun is kept no one would bat an eye. The recent Alabama abortion law is a very good example.
- mises 7y ago
  > Why are Americans so emotional about that ? How is that a basic liberty ? I think it has to do with our nation's history. We never had a feudal system or a monarchy and fought for independence. It's a different culture. It is a basic liberty because it was set out as such as a founding principle of our nation. If you don't believe an armed populace can stop a tyrannical government, visit Vietnam or the middle east. Health insurance is regulated. Government has no business with obesity rates; are you suggesting a "right to be skinny"? America was not founded as a democracy, but as a modified republic. And spying by 3-letter agencies is horrible, unconstitutional, and ought to be stopped. I will refrain from responding to your abortion remark, as I think that falls under the "generic flamewar" prohibition of things we are not supposed to discuss, barring an original thought to contribute; and it is not relevant to the article. If you want to debate more on that score, we can do so offline; keybase info is in my profile.

by mises 7y ago

StavrosK 7y ago

Are you saying that the social context when the bill of rights was drafted is the Only True Context and anything that happened before or after didn't actually lead to the need for more rights? Because you can't have a right to bear arms when no arms exist.

ben_w 7y ago

> Basic liberties are a very narrow category as laid out in the Bill of Rights. "Owning your data" is not a right in the sense in which your parent comment was speaking, certainly not in the same way as the Right to Bear Arms. I’ve seen this attitude to the second amendment many times. You might regard it as a fundamental and inalienable right (even though it’s in an amendment and therefore, y’know, amendable), but so far as I can see most of the rest of my [1] world think America is basically insane to even want that. [1] i.e. anecdata, as I can’t find stats one way or the other.

pushpop 7y ago

The distinction only exists because you chose it to. Both were drafted by politicians. The only real difference is one was written hundreds of years ago to address problems that existed then and the other was written for a modern era to address problems we face currently.

pushpop 7y ago
So some nut job thinks owning guns is vital for modern society? Good luck using that hand gun to overthrow your government (which is what the 2nd amendment exists for) while they roll in with their heavy armoured tanks and drones. I’m sure your bullets will make a dent while they’re firing missiles at you ;)

lm28469 7y ago

> European concept of creating new rights to suit a political agenda. Compared to ? The US ? > Right to Bear Arms. Why are Americans so emotional about that ? How is that a basic liberty ? What about the right not to die of diabetes because you can't afford insulin thanks to the unregulated "free market" they call "health industry" ? The right not to have > 70% of your population overweight ? The right to have a proper political system which isn't "democratic" in name only. The right now to be systematically spied on by 3 letters agencies ? It sounds like anything could happen but as long as the right to own gun is kept no one would bat an eye. The recent Alabama abortion law is a very good example.

mises 7y ago
> Why are Americans so emotional about that ? How is that a basic liberty ? I think it has to do with our nation's history. We never had a feudal system or a monarchy and fought for independence. It's a different culture. It is a basic liberty because it was set out as such as a founding principle of our nation. If you don't believe an armed populace can stop a tyrannical government, visit Vietnam or the middle east. Health insurance is regulated. Government has no business with obesity rates; are you suggesting a "right to be skinny"? America was not founded as a democracy, but as a modified republic. And spying by 3-letter agencies is horrible, unconstitutional, and ought to be stopped. I will refrain from responding to your abortion remark, as I think that falls under the "generic flamewar" prohibition of things we are not supposed to discuss, barring an original thought to contribute; and it is not relevant to the article. If you want to debate more on that score, we can do so offline; keybase info is in my profile.