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> It's an extremely dangerous conflation of terms to suggest that private speech and private moderation are the same as censorship. It's extremely dangerous to

> It's an extremely dangerous conflation of terms to suggest that private speech and private moderation are the same as censorship. It's extremely dangerous to continue to erode the spirit and meaning of free speech by narrowly defining it as a government only concept. We're collectively losing our ability to tolerate different views and have a level playing field of discussion. We need to get back to "I may not agree with what you say but I'll fight to the death for your right to say it". Both in spirit and in law. Tech companies and political parties have been attacking the spirit of free speech.

KirinDave 7y ago
> It's extremely dangerous to continue to erode the spirit and meaning of free speech by narrowly defining it as a government only concept. What spirit is that? No country in the world gives unrestricted speech as a right to citizens. That includes the US, which merely forbids government retaliation. But what's more, this principle is applied very selectively. Why wasn't it free speech to be an openly gay scoutmaster in 2014? Well, for the same reason that Twitter can ban Nazi speech now: they own the platform and restrict membership as they see fit. Similarly, you cannot demand the Washington Post print an arbitrary story. Nor can you force a radio station to broadcast your show. They get to make editorial and resourcing decisions for their content. What's more, social media is not as restricted a space as these prior examples. It is a product. You can to buy it. You can elect to use Mindz and Gab if you want! YouTube is full of extremely bipartisan channels ranging from "Libertarian Socialist Rants" to its dual with "PragerU". The only one attacking free speech is the folks who want to restrict editorial speech because it gets in the way of their ability to project their message onto people who don't want it. And being able to project yourself onto people actively avoiding you is not and will never be a reasonable definition of free speech.
- malvosenior 7y ago
  > What spirit is that? It’s the spirit of the audience to want all viewpoints available. I explicitly said I’m not talking about the government and I don’t know how your scoutmaster example has anything to do with what we’re talking about. If you operate a platform, you are not a media company, you’re a utility and you shouldn’t interfere with content. If you’re part of the audience you should demand access to all content so you can make your own decisions. That is the spirit of free speech I’m talking about. Edit: I explicitly stated I'm talking about the spirit of free speech and not the law. I'm not going to bother replying to comments that don't address that point.
  - KirinDave 7y ago
    > I explicitly said I’m not talking about the government and I don’t know how your scoutmaster example has anything to do with what we’re talking about. Really? You really don't? > If you operate a platform, you are not a media company, you’re a utility and you shouldn’t interfere with content. This has never been true. It cannot be true in the American legal framework. What's more, that's not what this discussion or the Executive's survey is about. We can look at lawsuits brought by friends of this initiative and public complaints listed to see that their actual complaint is with heckling. Trump wants to suppress sources, Nunes wants to punish the operator of the "Devin Nunes's Cow" account. Heckling is the right of the audience to speak back to the speak and not be lectured to at gunpoint.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - IOT_Apprentice 7y ago
    If you operate a business, you are not a utility. If Twitter is not a media company, then they are not subject to FCC or government regulation. Furthermore, you are not required to use Twitter, nor do you pay to do so. The first amendment does not allow you to walk into Walmart with a blazing Tiki Torch yelling "Jews will not replace us". If the "audience" does not get what they want they are free to move elsewhere and seek it. Move to gab and speech away. Start a blog, post on Brietbart or the Daily Stormer or Fox News or the Blaze, or the Federalist or r/theDonals. Their comment sections are open, have at it.
IOT_Apprentice 7y ago
No we don't. The meaning of free speech is clearly defined in the United States by the First Amendment. QED.
- malvosenior 7y ago
  I explicitly stated I'm talking about the spirit of free speech.
  - cannonedhamster 7y ago
    The spirit of free speech is this. You have a right to say whatever the hell you want in public. That doesn't mean I have to let you do it in my home, my business, my private internet website. I am not required to give a platform to speech I disagree with. It also doesn't shield you from responsibility or the inevitable reaction from choosing free speech.
    - malvosenior 7y ago
      I disagree. The spirit of free speech is that everyone should want to at least have access to all thoughts and speech. You don't have to like them, you don't have to read them but you should have access to them. Otherwise you're letting someone else filter what you can and cannot see.
      - cannonedhamster 7y ago
        You can disagree all you want. It doesn't make you less wrong. You literally are limited by the nature of the universe and your physical body so reality is a filter. Time limits how much you can consume should you be able to bypass the physical limitations of your body. Your belief is fundamentally incongruous with the intent of free speech. If I am forced to host your platform/speech/lewd gestures/etc. you're taking away my rights of free speech to not host your platform. No one is taking away access. What they are doing is kicking the drunk ass jerk out of the bar for harassing other people because they were warned to stop being such a dick and they continued on anyways. They can say whatever they want from someplace them own and no one is preventing access to them. They want a bar full of jerks, they can go right ahead and have no rules of decorum. You're confusing unlimited speech with free speech. There has never been a right to access to all speech. Private conversations happen all the time and no one has a right to listen to those. So again, just because someone owns a billboard doesn't mean they are required to post your message. The courts have been pretty solid on this and it's why the baker won his case against the couple. You cannot force me to advocate for you if I don't believe in it.

KirinDave 7y ago

> It's extremely dangerous to continue to erode the spirit and meaning of free speech by narrowly defining it as a government only concept. What spirit is that? No country in the world gives unrestricted speech as a right to citizens. That includes the US, which merely forbids government retaliation. But what's more, this principle is applied very selectively. Why wasn't it free speech to be an openly gay scoutmaster in 2014? Well, for the same reason that Twitter can ban Nazi speech now: they own the platform and restrict membership as they see fit. Similarly, you cannot demand the Washington Post print an arbitrary story. Nor can you force a radio station to broadcast your show. They get to make editorial and resourcing decisions for their content. What's more, social media is not as restricted a space as these prior examples. It is a product. You can to buy it. You can elect to use Mindz and Gab if you want! YouTube is full of extremely bipartisan channels ranging from "Libertarian Socialist Rants" to its dual with "PragerU". The only one attacking free speech is the folks who want to restrict editorial speech because it gets in the way of their ability to project their message onto people who don't want it. And being able to project yourself onto people actively avoiding you is not and will never be a reasonable definition of free speech.

malvosenior 7y ago
> What spirit is that? It’s the spirit of the audience to want all viewpoints available. I explicitly said I’m not talking about the government and I don’t know how your scoutmaster example has anything to do with what we’re talking about. If you operate a platform, you are not a media company, you’re a utility and you shouldn’t interfere with content. If you’re part of the audience you should demand access to all content so you can make your own decisions. That is the spirit of free speech I’m talking about. Edit: I explicitly stated I'm talking about the spirit of free speech and not the law. I'm not going to bother replying to comments that don't address that point.
- KirinDave 7y ago
  > I explicitly said I’m not talking about the government and I don’t know how your scoutmaster example has anything to do with what we’re talking about. Really? You really don't? > If you operate a platform, you are not a media company, you’re a utility and you shouldn’t interfere with content. This has never been true. It cannot be true in the American legal framework. What's more, that's not what this discussion or the Executive's survey is about. We can look at lawsuits brought by friends of this initiative and public complaints listed to see that their actual complaint is with heckling. Trump wants to suppress sources, Nunes wants to punish the operator of the "Devin Nunes's Cow" account. Heckling is the right of the audience to speak back to the speak and not be lectured to at gunpoint.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- IOT_Apprentice 7y ago
  If you operate a business, you are not a utility. If Twitter is not a media company, then they are not subject to FCC or government regulation. Furthermore, you are not required to use Twitter, nor do you pay to do so. The first amendment does not allow you to walk into Walmart with a blazing Tiki Torch yelling "Jews will not replace us". If the "audience" does not get what they want they are free to move elsewhere and seek it. Move to gab and speech away. Start a blog, post on Brietbart or the Daily Stormer or Fox News or the Blaze, or the Federalist or r/theDonals. Their comment sections are open, have at it.

IOT_Apprentice 7y ago

No we don't. The meaning of free speech is clearly defined in the United States by the First Amendment. QED.

malvosenior 7y ago
I explicitly stated I'm talking about the spirit of free speech.
- cannonedhamster 7y ago
  The spirit of free speech is this. You have a right to say whatever the hell you want in public. That doesn't mean I have to let you do it in my home, my business, my private internet website. I am not required to give a platform to speech I disagree with. It also doesn't shield you from responsibility or the inevitable reaction from choosing free speech.
  - malvosenior 7y ago
    I disagree. The spirit of free speech is that everyone should want to at least have access to all thoughts and speech. You don't have to like them, you don't have to read them but you should have access to them. Otherwise you're letting someone else filter what you can and cannot see.
    - cannonedhamster 7y ago
      You can disagree all you want. It doesn't make you less wrong. You literally are limited by the nature of the universe and your physical body so reality is a filter. Time limits how much you can consume should you be able to bypass the physical limitations of your body. Your belief is fundamentally incongruous with the intent of free speech. If I am forced to host your platform/speech/lewd gestures/etc. you're taking away my rights of free speech to not host your platform. No one is taking away access. What they are doing is kicking the drunk ass jerk out of the bar for harassing other people because they were warned to stop being such a dick and they continued on anyways. They can say whatever they want from someplace them own and no one is preventing access to them. They want a bar full of jerks, they can go right ahead and have no rules of decorum. You're confusing unlimited speech with free speech. There has never been a right to access to all speech. Private conversations happen all the time and no one has a right to listen to those. So again, just because someone owns a billboard doesn't mean they are required to post your message. The courts have been pretty solid on this and it's why the baker won his case against the couple. You cannot force me to advocate for you if I don't believe in it.