3 ms·

> It's not clear to me that she actually believes that. It's unfortunate that a long, in-depth, sympathetic article titled "Is Prison Necessary? Ruth Wilson Gi

by roca 7y ago

> It's not clear to me that she actually believes that. It's unfortunate that a long, in-depth, sympathetic article titled "Is Prison Necessary? Ruth Wilson Gilmore Might Change Your Mind" didn't make it clear to you whether Ruth Wilson Gilmore believes prison is necessary. Personally I have taken prison abolitionists at their word, that they actually do want to abolish prisons. I have long been genuinely curious how they would handle serious crime in the complete absence of prisons. I expect this is the first thing most people would want to know about their program. It's surprising and disappointing that the article (and other articles I've read on this subject) fails to answer that question.

wahern 7y ago
Does anybody believe that perfect equality (of wealth, of opportunity, of w'ever) is possible? Does that mean we as a society shouldn't bother establishing equality as goal? In a large election a single vote doesn't matter. And yet if we permitted that fact to dissuade us from voting nobody would vote and democracy as we practice it would be impossible. I haven't read Gilmore's writings, and I'm basing my interpretations off the article author's gloss--their selected quotations and elaborations--but applying the rule of lenity and in light of some of her very cogent points (that private prisons aren't a big problem, that the vast majority of prisoners are in fact violent offenders) it would seem that she's applying the same principles as Plato and MLK. Specifically, that society can only achieve and will only reap that which it orders itself around. Whether irrepressibly violent people will always exist is beside the point. If we build a system directed toward the management of such people, then those are the people we're going to get, above and beyond whatever genetically predetermined base rate we might otherwise find in the population. How does Gilmore translate her abolitionist position into specific policy prescriptions? I don't know. Maybe they're contentious; maybe I'd disagree with them altogether. But at least superficially I don't see abolitionism particularly inconsistent. I doubt you feel compelled to demand that a Get Out the Vote volunteer explain to you why voting matters, or demand that a "Why Voting Matters" article provide a concrete proof for why it matters. It's more intuitive that voting could only matter in so far as enough people have internalized the notion that it matters and act accordingly. Americans, I think, lack that intuition and suspension of disbelief when it comes to violence and crime. Some things are self-fulfilling prophecies--if we believe or don't believe, that's what we'll get. How societies manage to shift from one set of expectations to the polar opposite... that's still something of a mystery, but surely it involves being open to advocates like Gilmore.
- Grustaf 7y ago
  I don’t follow your argument, are you saying that if we just “reorient” our society away from violence by not using violence to punish criminals, they will stop committing crimes? Yes I agree we should strive for a society were fewer crimes are committed, , but I don’t see how that somehow implies that we should abolish prisons. We only imprison people who actually commit crimes. Besides, prisons have many uses, apart from curing the criminal. The first is to stop blood feuds, if society does not punish crime then relatives of the victim will, and this leads to never ending spirals of violence. Crime victims generally are more concerned with justice than rehabilitation. Another important reason is to keep criminals off the streets. No matter what happens once they get out, we can be sure that the streets are safe from them while they’re in prison. And since most violent criminals are young men, if we put them away until their testosterone has calmed down about in their thirties, they should be much safer to have around. Then there’s of course the deterring effect of a potential prison sentence. I for one believe that if crime goes unpunished then we’d see more of it, not less. I’m not saying that the american prison system isn’t terrible, but that is no reason not to have prisons at all.
- Grustaf 7y ago
  Your last paragraph is pretty funny. YEs I do actually expect that a campaigner for closing prisons can actually present an argument for it, and the same goes for a lengthy article that purports to change my mind on the issue.

by roca 7y ago

wahern 7y ago

Does anybody believe that perfect equality (of wealth, of opportunity, of w'ever) is possible? Does that mean we as a society shouldn't bother establishing equality as goal? In a large election a single vote doesn't matter. And yet if we permitted that fact to dissuade us from voting nobody would vote and democracy as we practice it would be impossible. I haven't read Gilmore's writings, and I'm basing my interpretations off the article author's gloss--their selected quotations and elaborations--but applying the rule of lenity and in light of some of her very cogent points (that private prisons aren't a big problem, that the vast majority of prisoners are in fact violent offenders) it would seem that she's applying the same principles as Plato and MLK. Specifically, that society can only achieve and will only reap that which it orders itself around. Whether irrepressibly violent people will always exist is beside the point. If we build a system directed toward the management of such people, then those are the people we're going to get, above and beyond whatever genetically predetermined base rate we might otherwise find in the population. How does Gilmore translate her abolitionist position into specific policy prescriptions? I don't know. Maybe they're contentious; maybe I'd disagree with them altogether. But at least superficially I don't see abolitionism particularly inconsistent. I doubt you feel compelled to demand that a Get Out the Vote volunteer explain to you why voting matters, or demand that a "Why Voting Matters" article provide a concrete proof for why it matters. It's more intuitive that voting could only matter in so far as enough people have internalized the notion that it matters and act accordingly. Americans, I think, lack that intuition and suspension of disbelief when it comes to violence and crime. Some things are self-fulfilling prophecies--if we believe or don't believe, that's what we'll get. How societies manage to shift from one set of expectations to the polar opposite... that's still something of a mystery, but surely it involves being open to advocates like Gilmore.

Grustaf 7y ago
I don’t follow your argument, are you saying that if we just “reorient” our society away from violence by not using violence to punish criminals, they will stop committing crimes? Yes I agree we should strive for a society were fewer crimes are committed, , but I don’t see how that somehow implies that we should abolish prisons. We only imprison people who actually commit crimes. Besides, prisons have many uses, apart from curing the criminal. The first is to stop blood feuds, if society does not punish crime then relatives of the victim will, and this leads to never ending spirals of violence. Crime victims generally are more concerned with justice than rehabilitation. Another important reason is to keep criminals off the streets. No matter what happens once they get out, we can be sure that the streets are safe from them while they’re in prison. And since most violent criminals are young men, if we put them away until their testosterone has calmed down about in their thirties, they should be much safer to have around. Then there’s of course the deterring effect of a potential prison sentence. I for one believe that if crime goes unpunished then we’d see more of it, not less. I’m not saying that the american prison system isn’t terrible, but that is no reason not to have prisons at all.
Grustaf 7y ago
Your last paragraph is pretty funny. YEs I do actually expect that a campaigner for closing prisons can actually present an argument for it, and the same goes for a lengthy article that purports to change my mind on the issue.