5 ms·

The article largely mirrors how European countries deal with crime: low sentences and extensive re-integration programs. The goal in Europe is integration and

The article largely mirrors how European countries deal with crime: low sentences and extensive re-integration programs. The goal in Europe is integration and eliminating recidivism, whereas the goal in America is vengeance and isolation. You won't see any progress until that overarching goal changes.

nullwasamistake 8y ago
IMO the biggest problem with American penal system is how crazy the punishments are for non-violent crimes. Get caught smoking crack a few times? You might be in prison for many years. Another issue is how the government + private industry is allowed to punish you for life even though you've supposedly "done your time". Employers can and regularly do discriminate even for things that would have no affect on job performance. Oh also housing and loans. You're basically pushed to the fringes of society unless you manage to make it big with your own business. Oh and if you commit a drug crime you're cut off from school financial aid for life. And if you have any felony the army probably won't even take you. Have fun trying to turn your life around when your own government slams the door. I'm okay with long prison sentences for really nasty stuff like murder. Not such a big deal if an ex-con steals some shit again, pretty bad if he goes back to killing people.
Grustaf 8y ago
Sweden is at the forefront of this movement. Have you seen Swedish crime statistics lately?
- _pmf_ 8y ago
  Our US friend like to maintain their utopian views of Europe; don't distract them with facts.
- nchie 8y ago
  How are crime statistics relevant? If anything, you should look at recidivism. Crime statistics have more to do with other things in society than the 'philosophy' of prisons.
- dagw 8y ago
  Could you please link to the particular statistics you believe to be the most relevant to this discussion instead of just making insinuations.
- pimmen 8y ago
  Violent crimes has been stable for about a decade. About 100 people are killed in Sweden per year[1], about 250 are killed in Detroit per year[2]. Comparing different crime statistics between countries is very dicey BTW. Sweden has the broadest definition of rape in the world and the most comprehensive support systems for the victims. Saudi Arabia officially has 0.3 rapes per 100 000 people, where the victims can get punishments worse than the perpetrators. [3] [1] https://www.bra.se/statistik/statistik-utifran-brottstyper/mord-och-drap.html https://www.bra.se/statistik/statistik-utifran-brottstyper/m... [2] https://eu.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2019/01/02/homicides-2018/2461980002/ https://eu.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2019/... [3] https://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/Crime-statistics/International_Statistics_on_Crime_and_Justice.pdf https://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/Crime-stat...
indigochill 8y ago
>whereas the goal in America is vengeance and isolation Given the way American politics runs on lobbying, I'm inclined to lean towards the goal actually being maximizing profits. This can appear in various ways: Private prisons lobbying for longer sentences, and service providers monopolizing service to prisoners to charge exorbitant rates: https://www.newyorker.com/business/currency/making-profits-on-the-captive-prison-market https://www.newyorker.com/business/currency/making-profits-o... Training voice AI on prisoner phone calls: https://boingboing.net/2019/01/30/prison-profiteering.html https://boingboing.net/2019/01/30/prison-profiteering.html Even profiteering on halfway houses: https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2018/mar/6/cages-community-prison-profiteers-and-treatment-industrial-complex/ https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2018/mar/6/cages-commun... And others. Just look up "prison profiteering" and you'll find endless examples.
baud147258 8y ago
Not all European countries: considering how French prison are overcrowded and the recidivism rate there. (also considering how most of the terrorists in France spent time in prison)
dagw 8y ago
This paper from 2015: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4472929/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4472929/ seems to indicate that the US vs Europe story about recidivism rates is more complicated than it first appears.

nullwasamistake 8y ago

IMO the biggest problem with American penal system is how crazy the punishments are for non-violent crimes. Get caught smoking crack a few times? You might be in prison for many years. Another issue is how the government + private industry is allowed to punish you for life even though you've supposedly "done your time". Employers can and regularly do discriminate even for things that would have no affect on job performance. Oh also housing and loans. You're basically pushed to the fringes of society unless you manage to make it big with your own business. Oh and if you commit a drug crime you're cut off from school financial aid for life. And if you have any felony the army probably won't even take you. Have fun trying to turn your life around when your own government slams the door. I'm okay with long prison sentences for really nasty stuff like murder. Not such a big deal if an ex-con steals some shit again, pretty bad if he goes back to killing people.

Grustaf 8y ago

Sweden is at the forefront of this movement. Have you seen Swedish crime statistics lately?

_pmf_ 8y ago
Our US friend like to maintain their utopian views of Europe; don't distract them with facts.
nchie 8y ago
How are crime statistics relevant? If anything, you should look at recidivism. Crime statistics have more to do with other things in society than the 'philosophy' of prisons.
dagw 8y ago
Could you please link to the particular statistics you believe to be the most relevant to this discussion instead of just making insinuations.
pimmen 8y ago
Violent crimes has been stable for about a decade. About 100 people are killed in Sweden per year[1], about 250 are killed in Detroit per year[2]. Comparing different crime statistics between countries is very dicey BTW. Sweden has the broadest definition of rape in the world and the most comprehensive support systems for the victims. Saudi Arabia officially has 0.3 rapes per 100 000 people, where the victims can get punishments worse than the perpetrators. [3] [1] https://www.bra.se/statistik/statistik-utifran-brottstyper/mord-och-drap.html https://www.bra.se/statistik/statistik-utifran-brottstyper/m... [2] https://eu.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2019/01/02/homicides-2018/2461980002/ https://eu.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2019/... [3] https://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/Crime-statistics/International_Statistics_on_Crime_and_Justice.pdf https://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/Crime-stat...

indigochill 8y ago

>whereas the goal in America is vengeance and isolation Given the way American politics runs on lobbying, I'm inclined to lean towards the goal actually being maximizing profits. This can appear in various ways: Private prisons lobbying for longer sentences, and service providers monopolizing service to prisoners to charge exorbitant rates: https://www.newyorker.com/business/currency/making-profits-on-the-captive-prison-market https://www.newyorker.com/business/currency/making-profits-o... Training voice AI on prisoner phone calls: https://boingboing.net/2019/01/30/prison-profiteering.html https://boingboing.net/2019/01/30/prison-profiteering.html Even profiteering on halfway houses: https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2018/mar/6/cages-community-prison-profiteers-and-treatment-industrial-complex/ https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2018/mar/6/cages-commun... And others. Just look up "prison profiteering" and you'll find endless examples.

baud147258 8y ago

Not all European countries: considering how French prison are overcrowded and the recidivism rate there. (also considering how most of the terrorists in France spent time in prison)

dagw 8y ago

This paper from 2015: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4472929/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4472929/ seems to indicate that the US vs Europe story about recidivism rates is more complicated than it first appears.