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Comparing snapshots of organisms isn't that useful. C. Elegans is never going to turn into a conscious human being.
by hyperdunc 7y ago
Comparing snapshots of organisms isn't that useful. C. Elegans is never going to turn into a conscious human being.
- unknownkadath 7y agoWhy not? So what?
- TimTheTinker 7y agoI think the commenter is just pointing out a potential fallacy -- comparing things that are fundamentally different to force a conclusion that is nonsensical.
- unknownkadath 7y agoLike how you compare a live woman with a history and thoughts and dreams with a few micrograms of cells that a body may or may not spontaneosly eject via well-characterized biological processes?
- justasitsounds 7y agoWell, if we're talking about potential, most pro-lifers make exceptions for cases of rape or incest. However, if it's one's "sincerely held belief" that a ball of cells is a human because it has the potential to become a conscious human being then such exceptions are the equivalent to killing an adult who's only crime is to have been conceived as a result of rape or incest. Personally I am pro-choice, but if you are really pro-life you cannot morally allow for exceptions in the case of rape or incest- unless of course your stated agenda isn't the same as your real agenda
- TimTheTinker 7y agoI’m pro-life, and I think killing an unborn baby for any reason is abhorrent — as you said, it’s the same as murdering an adult. (Although there are cases where the mother’s life is in danger - but that’s always about “who to save” in the middle of a surgery or something - that’s different.) I don’t know who you’ve heard that viewpoint from (abortion is wrong except in cases of rape/invest) but I don’t believe that and I don’t know anyone who does. I think it appears as a political concession and rarely (if ever) as a sincerely held belief.
- unknownkadath 7y agoA neural tube isn't a baby.
- TimTheTinker 7y agoA human zygote is a person, and so is everything that follows. From the moment of fertilization, there is a single developmental progression of a single organism. There isn't any other meaningful scientific or logical distinction that can be made. Before fertilization, you have the gametes from two separate organisms. Afterwards, there is a new, unique organism (a human being) who has a separate identify. And yes, that means I think common in-vitro fertilization practices (including making multiple zygotes and throwing some out) are morally wrong and equivalent to abortion. If anyone disagrees, I contend it's because of the moral implications, not any lack of soundness in the scientific or logical arguments.
- unknownkadath 7y agoYou are welcome to your wrong opinion, just like Pythagoras.
- burfog 7y agoSay what??? A neural tube doesn't instantly transform into a baby at the moment of birth. The unborn that are getting killed can typically move about, feel pain, and respond to injury. They react in agony when being torn apart or injected with brine. They have brainwaves, which is the usual standard (varies by state law) we use to draw the line at the end of life, with the loss of brainwaves meaning death. Obviously we don't need to check dusty old bones or a person chatting with the doctor, but we do check in the difficult cases. Consistency demands that our standard for one end of a lifetime be as similar as possible to our standard for the other end of a lifetime. That standard for death, subject to minor variations in state law, is brainwaves. Conveniently, such a standard eliminates the rape excuse. There is plenty of time prior to brainwaves.
- unknownkadath 7y ago
- baud147258 7y agoI'm pro-life and wouldn't make any exception in case of rape and incest; there's already been a crime, no need to add another (innocent) victim to the tally. But I think that we would need to also put into place to help women with unwanted pregnancies too.
- unknownkadath 7y agoPythagoras thought beans were people.
- baud147258 7y agoI don't. And?
- unknownkadath 7y agoHe thought that because he was good at triangles that he was right to violently impose his wrong beliefs on his countrymen. It didn't go well for him. The parallels are pretty obvious, and they do not require a ruler and compass to construct.
- baud147258 7y agoWell, I don't.
- unknownkadath 7y agoAnd neural tubes aren't people, but women are.
- baud147258 7y agoYes and yes. But embryo are also people
- 7y ago