6 ms·

See, here's the thing: a neural tube with the same number of neurons as C. elegans isn't the same thing as a human being. I can see how some folks can get conf

See, here's the thing: a neural tube with the same number of neurons as C. elegans isn't the same thing as a human being. I can see how some folks can get confused, though.

hyperdunc 7y ago
Comparing snapshots of organisms isn't that useful. C. Elegans is never going to turn into a conscious human being.
- unknownkadath 7y ago
  Why not? So what?
  - TimTheTinker 7y ago
    I think the commenter is just pointing out a potential fallacy -- comparing things that are fundamentally different to force a conclusion that is nonsensical.
    - unknownkadath 7y ago
      Like how you compare a live woman with a history and thoughts and dreams with a few micrograms of cells that a body may or may not spontaneosly eject via well-characterized biological processes?
- justasitsounds 7y ago
  Well, if we're talking about potential, most pro-lifers make exceptions for cases of rape or incest. However, if it's one's "sincerely held belief" that a ball of cells is a human because it has the potential to become a conscious human being then such exceptions are the equivalent to killing an adult who's only crime is to have been conceived as a result of rape or incest. Personally I am pro-choice, but if you are really pro-life you cannot morally allow for exceptions in the case of rape or incest- unless of course your stated agenda isn't the same as your real agenda
  - TimTheTinker 7y ago
    I’m pro-life, and I think killing an unborn baby for any reason is abhorrent — as you said, it’s the same as murdering an adult. (Although there are cases where the mother’s life is in danger - but that’s always about “who to save” in the middle of a surgery or something - that’s different.) I don’t know who you’ve heard that viewpoint from (abortion is wrong except in cases of rape/invest) but I don’t believe that and I don’t know anyone who does. I think it appears as a political concession and rarely (if ever) as a sincerely held belief.
    - unknownkadath 7y ago
      A neural tube isn't a baby.
      - TimTheTinker 7y ago
        A human zygote is a person, and so is everything that follows. From the moment of fertilization, there is a single developmental progression of a single organism. There isn't any other meaningful scientific or logical distinction that can be made. Before fertilization, you have the gametes from two separate organisms. Afterwards, there is a new, unique organism (a human being) who has a separate identify. And yes, that means I think common in-vitro fertilization practices (including making multiple zygotes and throwing some out) are morally wrong and equivalent to abortion. If anyone disagrees, I contend it's because of the moral implications, not any lack of soundness in the scientific or logical arguments.
        unknownkadath 7y ago
        You are welcome to your wrong opinion, just like Pythagoras.
      - burfog 7y ago
        Say what??? A neural tube doesn't instantly transform into a baby at the moment of birth. The unborn that are getting killed can typically move about, feel pain, and respond to injury. They react in agony when being torn apart or injected with brine. They have brainwaves, which is the usual standard (varies by state law) we use to draw the line at the end of life, with the loss of brainwaves meaning death. Obviously we don't need to check dusty old bones or a person chatting with the doctor, but we do check in the difficult cases. Consistency demands that our standard for one end of a lifetime be as similar as possible to our standard for the other end of a lifetime. That standard for death, subject to minor variations in state law, is brainwaves. Conveniently, such a standard eliminates the rape excuse. There is plenty of time prior to brainwaves.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
dang 7y ago
Please don't break the site guidelines by taking a thread further into flamewar, regardless of how provocative some other comment was. TimTheTinker shouldn't have gone there, but you fed it with at least 10 flamewar comments, and that's egregious. Regardless of strongly you feel about choice, nothing good could possibly come out of what you did here, and meanwhile it damages the commons, which is already fragile. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

See, here's the thing: a neural tube with the same number of neurons as C. elegans isn't the same thing as a human being. I can see how some folks can get confused, though.

hyperdunc 7y ago

Comparing snapshots of organisms isn't that useful. C. Elegans is never going to turn into a conscious human being.

unknownkadath 7y ago
Why not? So what?
- TimTheTinker 7y ago
  I think the commenter is just pointing out a potential fallacy -- comparing things that are fundamentally different to force a conclusion that is nonsensical.
  - unknownkadath 7y ago
    Like how you compare a live woman with a history and thoughts and dreams with a few micrograms of cells that a body may or may not spontaneosly eject via well-characterized biological processes?
justasitsounds 7y ago
Well, if we're talking about potential, most pro-lifers make exceptions for cases of rape or incest. However, if it's one's "sincerely held belief" that a ball of cells is a human because it has the potential to become a conscious human being then such exceptions are the equivalent to killing an adult who's only crime is to have been conceived as a result of rape or incest. Personally I am pro-choice, but if you are really pro-life you cannot morally allow for exceptions in the case of rape or incest- unless of course your stated agenda isn't the same as your real agenda
- TimTheTinker 7y ago
  I’m pro-life, and I think killing an unborn baby for any reason is abhorrent — as you said, it’s the same as murdering an adult. (Although there are cases where the mother’s life is in danger - but that’s always about “who to save” in the middle of a surgery or something - that’s different.) I don’t know who you’ve heard that viewpoint from (abortion is wrong except in cases of rape/invest) but I don’t believe that and I don’t know anyone who does. I think it appears as a political concession and rarely (if ever) as a sincerely held belief.
  - unknownkadath 7y ago
    A neural tube isn't a baby.
    - TimTheTinker 7y ago
      A human zygote is a person, and so is everything that follows. From the moment of fertilization, there is a single developmental progression of a single organism. There isn't any other meaningful scientific or logical distinction that can be made. Before fertilization, you have the gametes from two separate organisms. Afterwards, there is a new, unique organism (a human being) who has a separate identify. And yes, that means I think common in-vitro fertilization practices (including making multiple zygotes and throwing some out) are morally wrong and equivalent to abortion. If anyone disagrees, I contend it's because of the moral implications, not any lack of soundness in the scientific or logical arguments.
      - unknownkadath 7y ago
        You are welcome to your wrong opinion, just like Pythagoras.
    - burfog 7y ago
      Say what??? A neural tube doesn't instantly transform into a baby at the moment of birth. The unborn that are getting killed can typically move about, feel pain, and respond to injury. They react in agony when being torn apart or injected with brine. They have brainwaves, which is the usual standard (varies by state law) we use to draw the line at the end of life, with the loss of brainwaves meaning death. Obviously we don't need to check dusty old bones or a person chatting with the doctor, but we do check in the difficult cases. Consistency demands that our standard for one end of a lifetime be as similar as possible to our standard for the other end of a lifetime. That standard for death, subject to minor variations in state law, is brainwaves. Conveniently, such a standard eliminates the rape excuse. There is plenty of time prior to brainwaves.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

dang 7y ago

Please don't break the site guidelines by taking a thread further into flamewar, regardless of how provocative some other comment was. TimTheTinker shouldn't have gone there, but you fed it with at least 10 flamewar comments, and that's egregious. Regardless of strongly you feel about choice, nothing good could possibly come out of what you did here, and meanwhile it damages the commons, which is already fragile. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html