8 ms·

Hotmail development team on Reddit

105 points by netaddict 16y ago

steverb 16y ago
The poster is not questioning the need for open standards, they are questioning the user's need to have that particular standard implemented in hotmail. Which is not necessarily a bad thing to do IMO.
- wccrawford 16y ago
  He wasn't just questioning that particular standard. He was completely unable to understand a user wanting it. He had no clue that there is so much software out there that works with IMAP, but doesn't work with their proprietary protocol.
- larrik 16y ago
  I agree that the headline is a bit over the top. When I saw that they mentioned ActiveSync, all I could think of was "I'd have to plug my phone into my computer to get email???" I didn't know that's what they call their push service now.
  - Locke1689 16y ago
    Yeah the full name is Exchange ActiveSync.
cryptoz 16y ago
I found the much more insulting thing on that thread was the Hotmail developers' insistence that user's emails should be deleted after 270 days of inactivity. This point was brought up many times (well, about the old 30-day or 90-day limits), and all the devs said was "we fixed that! it used to be 30, now it's 270". That is so incredibly insulting. If you go help in an aid program in Africa for a while, you could come home to find 10 years of email deleted. Who would stay with an email service that does that? Microsoft just doesn't get that users want to be happy. Are the $ savings MS gets from disk space of old deleted emails really that important? Edit: Maybe this is a feature Facebook should implement. They ask for your Hotmail login and password anyway, they may as well say "Microsoft will delete your emails! But don't worry, we'll save them for you". Maybe then MS would take a hint and remove the "delete user's email now" code.
- raganwald 16y ago
  A few years back I was working with a BigButNimbleCo (yes, they exist) and there was a sudden kerfuffle. It seems that the Exchange servers had started crashing because there was too much email in them, and IT was sending out warnings that stuff was going to be deleted, so save what you wanted into archive files on the file shares. Sorry, I may not have explained this very clearly: Exchange was crashing because it held too much mail. I have no idea how many terrabytes were involved, but there fewer than 10,000 employees at the time. I know everyone is going to say that Exchange and Hotmail are completely different code bases, but what they have in common is Microsoft's vision of what people do with email and how they do it. I'd say that deleting old mail is in Microsoft's DNA.
  - zandorg 16y ago
    I've kept email since I switched from Hotmail to POP3 in about 1998. The wonderful bit is I wrote a desktop application which scans any number of hard drives and finds all mail in the main 5 formats (Mbox, Kmail files, Outlook <2003, Outlook 2003, Outlook Express, Eudora). Then you can search it with SQL. I haven't been able to find a customer for it but I love using it. But the point is "Don't throw away all that old email, put it in a database so you can search over 100,000 messages for just a few results to look at".
- benologist 16y ago
  There's internet, even in Africa! If you completely disconnect in this day and age for 9 months you're probably dead.
  - cryptoz 16y ago
    That's really not the point, though. Microsoft wrote code that will intentionally delete your email. It doesn't matter how unlikely that is or how bizarre the scenario is, that fact means I'll never use the service or recommend it to anyone. What if there's a bug in that code? Why risk writing code that deletes emails left and right? What's the point? The Devs said "we’d love your feedback", and when people say "please don't ever delete my email", the response is basically "too bad, you have 270 days". It's insulting.
ShabbyDoo 16y ago
I hope the Hotmail team follows through with answering questions. When the IE team offered to answer questions on Reddit, they quit after a few hours. The questions I had asked was (summarized): Most IE6 usage seems to be from large corps, and much of their resistance to upgrading is due to internal apps which only work correctly on IE6. Why doesn't Microsoft offer a standalone IE6 distro which could be installed alongside IE8/9 and used for the few apps holding back company-wide upgrades?
- stevelosh 16y ago
  > When the IE team offered to answer questions on Reddit, they quit after a few hours. From the original post: > tl;dr: Hotmail engineers and product managers want to discuss email from 12-3 PST today.
- larrik 16y ago
  I believe that Microsoft is still insisting that IE6 and Windows are inseparable, due to that being their defense in the DOJ trial.
  - sudont 16y ago
    I think the WINE implementation on Linux and OS X says a few things about their defense.
- _dan 16y ago
  I've often wondered why these companies don't install a non-IE browser as a primary browser, leaving IE6 on the system, then using HTAs (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms536496%28VS.85%29.aspx http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms536496%28VS.85%29....) with IE6 to deliver their intranet stuff.
  - ShabbyDoo 16y ago
    An interesting question, and one which ought to prompt Microsoft to do more for its corp customers. From reading the link, I presume that an HTA app uses whatever IE version happens to be on the system? Another bad thing for Microsoft is that legacy IE6 apps are slowing corporate adoption of Windows 7. Not only do these apps tie corps to a browser, but they tie them to an OS as well!
cshenoy 16y ago
From the Hotmail team: "Really quickly, want to address the IMAP questions that have come up. We haven't implemented imap since based on the user feedback and usage data, there isn't a large enough need when you look at the other protocols we provide. for mobile - we believe activesync is the best story. it gives you mail, calendar, and contacts. there is big adoption of the protocol here with android, iphone, and windows mobile. for clients - with the outlook connector, windows live mail client, and pop3, we cover the majority of client scenarios. there are definitely some gaps, but not enough to outweigh the cost. one of the tough trade offs we make. let me know if that doesn't answer the question. -ryan" Either their user base doesn't know any better (likely) or they have an extremely skewed view of the market (likely).
- viraptor 16y ago
  User base which knows better will never become their user base, until their strategy changes. This also creates their market view. Now, which one is the chicken and which one is the egg?
- larrik 16y ago
  As a consultant, I ran into a LOT of people who preferred POP3 on their phones and non-main devices. They just wanted to have as little email on their phone as possible (which also gives you decent security if the phone is lost). Combine this with the fact that Outlook is just terrible with IMAP, and I didn't find too many regular users who liked it. Personally, I wouldn't use anything else, of course.
  - thwarted 16y ago
    How does the choice of protocol determine if there is as little email on non-mail devices as possible? Also, I've seen people screw up POP3 configuration so the mail moves to the downloading device (because it gets deleted from the server after downloading, as they didn't choose the "leave mail on server" option). If your phone is continuously checking for and downloading mail, that less security in the event your phone is lost, because copies of your email potentially exist in multiple places. With POP3, everything is copied (or moved) and you don't get a choice to only download some messages (after looking at subject lines or sender names) and leave some messages on the server.
AndrewDucker 16y ago
What I find sad is that 90% of the replies are just flaming, they aren't actually trying to explain why they want it. Only a small proportion are saying that it's because it doesn't support email client X.
dstein 16y ago
The condescending attitude Microsoft has for users and developers can also be seen in their responses to Reddit's Q&A with the IE9 team: http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/dk3s0/the_ie9_team_responds_to_your_questions/ http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/dk3s0/the_ie9_te...
- Locke1689 16y ago
  Yeah, when I was at Microsoft we were really out to get the users and the developers. Are you fucking serious? I expect it at Reddit but not here.
  - jey 16y ago
    It's not a conscious decision to be hostile, just an effect of Microsoft's cultural norms and attitudes.
    - Locke1689 16y ago
      It's really not. Do you actually know any Microsoft developers? It's just impolite for people at Microsoft to say: "Reddit says it wants this feature but we haven't implemented this feature. Why? Because we have done a massive user study in the past year on this and there are fewer than 1% of users (power users only) who actually care."
      - btilly 16y ago
        What you say is probably true, but it is severely broken. Let me give an example. If you talk to users, very few will care that IE doesn't support key web standards that every other major browser does, because everyone is going to make things work on IE anyways. However if you talk to users, lots care that it is easy to develop rich web content. However the users don't have the perspective to understand that standards support will get them better web content. Therefore IE decides that better standards support is not a priority. And doesn't implement it. Conversely if IE did decide to implement better standards support, everyone would be better off. However Microsoft wouldn't get much credit for it, because it wouldn't be obvious to users how important Microsoft's role was in making things better. And developers would say, "Finally!" But then curse Microsoft for years anyways because it takes that long to get the old, broken, browsers off of the market. The result? IE is crap. And will remain crap. Indefinitely. And Microsoft is convinced that this is not a problem. (And for them it isn't - except for the also invisible problem that they have developed hiring problems in part because many good developers can't stand that attitude.)
twymer 16y ago
I think this was a negative PR move. Did they really think coming on reddit and saying things like this would be beneficial? I don't see any evidence in this that they actually care about peoples feedback. They just keep getting defensive about their decisions of deleting peoples email, not supporting IMAP etc.
- joblessjunkie 16y ago
  There's no such thing as bad press. I've read the name "Hotmail" more times today than I had in the past 6 months.
  - siddhant 16y ago
    Yes but all of it is in negative connotation. The replies on the thread are downright insulting. Take this for example - http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/ej32l/we_are_the_hotmail_development_team_lets_talk/c18gqth http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/ej32l/we_are_the_hotma... I think the Hotmail team shouldn't have done this, at least not before putting all the basic features in place.
    - twymer 16y ago
      This persons reply shows another example of them clearly ignoring the users they are attempting to reach (the people of reddit). you can turn off the page you see before the inbox if you want by going to options. many people like this because they see highlights of your inbox / networks in one spot. but understand if you don't -we often default logout to MSN since that's where many users come from. However this is something that we always look at. Guys, if your market it people who go to MSN to find the link to their email or through Outlook you shouldn't be surprised that the people of reddit don't like your product.
  - twymer 16y ago
    I guess this is a valid point. It reminds those who've forgotten about it that it still exists and is still being worked on.
  - 16y ago
jokermatt999 16y ago
Some good lessons about PR can be learned here. For one, don't use your normal marketing tone/marketing speak in a candid Q/A session like this one. The IE9 AMA and this AMA have done more to make me lose respect for Microsoft than anything else I've seen from them (although, I should note that I'm not old enough to have been around in their true "evil empire" style days). If they would actually answer questions honestly and engage the people asking them rather than spewing out the typical bullshit, I'd have gained more respect for them. They aren't acting like they're talking to people here. I don't mind seeing this kind of tone in press releases and such, but don't pretend you're going to give an honest "Ask Me Anything" style Q/A session when it's just free marketing. I think they're shooting themselves in the foot here, mostly. Until the IE9 AMA, I was considering trying it out, but their tone completely turned me off of it.
- shub 16y ago
  To make a long story short, IE9 is fast but very beta. Now you don't need to try it!
- pavel_lishin 16y ago
  They sent a marketer to do a developer's job."
  - rbanffy 16y ago
    If you observe their history carefully, you will see they do it all the time. I have worked with Site Server 3 in the late 90's and I can assure you no sane developer would have created such a monstrosity. That was, probably, the work of a marketer.
- nck4222 16y ago
  I agree, and on a related note I think part of it boils down to know your audience. They had marketers going and talk to a group who are largely power users. Of course the audience is going to be disappointed.
csomar 16y ago
I was a Hotmail Fan, until (at 2005-2006) one time, I didn't log for 3 months or so. All my inbox was recycled. I have only 4 Mb of Emails. They are hosting emails, few conversations and accounts information. It messed me up, as I lost lot of info; I decided not to use it again, even though I was happy with the experience (light Email user). I moved to gmail by begging random users to send me an invite. I was amazed with the storage and also with the experience and I still use the same inbox to that day.
sebg 16y ago
A really interesting comment was the following: "To possibly refine the thought: both Microsoft and Google want people to spend time on their sites. Microsoft tries to get people to spend time on their site by giving them reasons to not leave. Google tries to get people to spend time on their site by giving them reasons to come back." Not only for the web but also for life, jobs, health, etc. The google attitude, I would posit, is the right way to live.
ry0ohki 16y ago
It's pretty sad that Hotmail is trying to reach out to the tech community, and their comments and getting so far down voted on Reddit (-500 for one comment at time of writing this)
- potatolicious 16y ago
  I dislike the downvoting too, but there's a reason for it. People are raising valid critiques about Hotmail (that the Hotmail team specifically asked for!) and their only response was "well, why would anyone want all of that anyways?" They're clueless, that's why they're getting downvoted. Re: their complete and utter cluelessness when it comes to IMAP support, someone basically summarized up the reasoning in a single sentence, that the Hotmail team hasn't realized in years of managing this product: "ActiveSync? srsly? Does it work with my Android phone? With an iPhone? With anything else than Windows?"
  - macmaxbh 16y ago
    Yes, because they're actually talking about Exchange ActiveSync. http://windowsteamblog.com/windows_live/b/windowslive/archive/2010/08/30/hotmail-now-supports-push-email-calendar-and-contacts-with-exchange-activesync.aspx http://windowsteamblog.com/windows_live/b/windowslive/archiv... EAS is a protocol specifically for mobile phones, and Android, iPhone, Palm all support it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Exchange_ActiveSync_Clients http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Exchange_ActiveSy...
u48998 16y ago
I'm not a fan/user of Hotmail but what I don't understand is why people compare it to Gmail, or why people compare one service to another? If there are limitations and issues, than discuss on its own merits.
spazmaster 16y ago
I e-mailed Steve Ballmer with this brilliant idea and got a response. Hope he'll get on it. https://skitch.com/danielspronk/rrc2s/inbox-14307-messages https://skitch.com/danielspronk/rrc2s/inbox-14307-messages
pkamb 16y ago
Regarding branding: I had a huge "woah" moment a couple months ago when I realized (via wikipedia) that hotmail = HoTMaiL = HTML. Not sure how much cash would be involved in that acquisition, but @html.com would be a cool rebrand that I think tech-minded people would appreciate.
drlew 16y ago
on hotmail delivery stops after 270 days account expires after 1 year. this doesn't mean there isn't room to improve. its 270 day expiration for gmail, I believe. not sure for others

105 points by netaddict 16y ago

The poster is not questioning the need for open standards, they are questioning the user's need to have that particular standard implemented in hotmail. Which is not necessarily a bad thing to do IMO.

wccrawford 16y ago
He wasn't just questioning that particular standard. He was completely unable to understand a user wanting it. He had no clue that there is so much software out there that works with IMAP, but doesn't work with their proprietary protocol.
larrik 16y ago
I agree that the headline is a bit over the top. When I saw that they mentioned ActiveSync, all I could think of was "I'd have to plug my phone into my computer to get email???" I didn't know that's what they call their push service now.
- Locke1689 16y ago
  Yeah the full name is Exchange ActiveSync.

cryptoz 16y ago

I found the much more insulting thing on that thread was the Hotmail developers' insistence that user's emails should be deleted after 270 days of inactivity. This point was brought up many times (well, about the old 30-day or 90-day limits), and all the devs said was "we fixed that! it used to be 30, now it's 270". That is so incredibly insulting. If you go help in an aid program in Africa for a while, you could come home to find 10 years of email deleted. Who would stay with an email service that does that? Microsoft just doesn't get that users want to be happy. Are the $ savings MS gets from disk space of old deleted emails really that important? Edit: Maybe this is a feature Facebook should implement. They ask for your Hotmail login and password anyway, they may as well say "Microsoft will delete your emails! But don't worry, we'll save them for you". Maybe then MS would take a hint and remove the "delete user's email now" code.

raganwald 16y ago
A few years back I was working with a BigButNimbleCo (yes, they exist) and there was a sudden kerfuffle. It seems that the Exchange servers had started crashing because there was too much email in them, and IT was sending out warnings that stuff was going to be deleted, so save what you wanted into archive files on the file shares. Sorry, I may not have explained this very clearly: Exchange was crashing because it held too much mail. I have no idea how many terrabytes were involved, but there fewer than 10,000 employees at the time. I know everyone is going to say that Exchange and Hotmail are completely different code bases, but what they have in common is Microsoft's vision of what people do with email and how they do it. I'd say that deleting old mail is in Microsoft's DNA.
- zandorg 16y ago
  I've kept email since I switched from Hotmail to POP3 in about 1998. The wonderful bit is I wrote a desktop application which scans any number of hard drives and finds all mail in the main 5 formats (Mbox, Kmail files, Outlook <2003, Outlook 2003, Outlook Express, Eudora). Then you can search it with SQL. I haven't been able to find a customer for it but I love using it. But the point is "Don't throw away all that old email, put it in a database so you can search over 100,000 messages for just a few results to look at".
benologist 16y ago
There's internet, even in Africa! If you completely disconnect in this day and age for 9 months you're probably dead.
- cryptoz 16y ago
  That's really not the point, though. Microsoft wrote code that will intentionally delete your email. It doesn't matter how unlikely that is or how bizarre the scenario is, that fact means I'll never use the service or recommend it to anyone. What if there's a bug in that code? Why risk writing code that deletes emails left and right? What's the point? The Devs said "we’d love your feedback", and when people say "please don't ever delete my email", the response is basically "too bad, you have 270 days". It's insulting.

ShabbyDoo 16y ago

I hope the Hotmail team follows through with answering questions. When the IE team offered to answer questions on Reddit, they quit after a few hours. The questions I had asked was (summarized): Most IE6 usage seems to be from large corps, and much of their resistance to upgrading is due to internal apps which only work correctly on IE6. Why doesn't Microsoft offer a standalone IE6 distro which could be installed alongside IE8/9 and used for the few apps holding back company-wide upgrades?

stevelosh 16y ago
> When the IE team offered to answer questions on Reddit, they quit after a few hours. From the original post: > tl;dr: Hotmail engineers and product managers want to discuss email from 12-3 PST today.
larrik 16y ago
I believe that Microsoft is still insisting that IE6 and Windows are inseparable, due to that being their defense in the DOJ trial.
- sudont 16y ago
  I think the WINE implementation on Linux and OS X says a few things about their defense.
_dan 16y ago
I've often wondered why these companies don't install a non-IE browser as a primary browser, leaving IE6 on the system, then using HTAs (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms536496%28VS.85%29.aspx http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms536496%28VS.85%29....) with IE6 to deliver their intranet stuff.
- ShabbyDoo 16y ago
  An interesting question, and one which ought to prompt Microsoft to do more for its corp customers. From reading the link, I presume that an HTA app uses whatever IE version happens to be on the system? Another bad thing for Microsoft is that legacy IE6 apps are slowing corporate adoption of Windows 7. Not only do these apps tie corps to a browser, but they tie them to an OS as well!

cshenoy 16y ago

From the Hotmail team: "Really quickly, want to address the IMAP questions that have come up. We haven't implemented imap since based on the user feedback and usage data, there isn't a large enough need when you look at the other protocols we provide. for mobile - we believe activesync is the best story. it gives you mail, calendar, and contacts. there is big adoption of the protocol here with android, iphone, and windows mobile. for clients - with the outlook connector, windows live mail client, and pop3, we cover the majority of client scenarios. there are definitely some gaps, but not enough to outweigh the cost. one of the tough trade offs we make. let me know if that doesn't answer the question. -ryan" Either their user base doesn't know any better (likely) or they have an extremely skewed view of the market (likely).

viraptor 16y ago
User base which knows better will never become their user base, until their strategy changes. This also creates their market view. Now, which one is the chicken and which one is the egg?
larrik 16y ago
As a consultant, I ran into a LOT of people who preferred POP3 on their phones and non-main devices. They just wanted to have as little email on their phone as possible (which also gives you decent security if the phone is lost). Combine this with the fact that Outlook is just terrible with IMAP, and I didn't find too many regular users who liked it. Personally, I wouldn't use anything else, of course.
- thwarted 16y ago
  How does the choice of protocol determine if there is as little email on non-mail devices as possible? Also, I've seen people screw up POP3 configuration so the mail moves to the downloading device (because it gets deleted from the server after downloading, as they didn't choose the "leave mail on server" option). If your phone is continuously checking for and downloading mail, that less security in the event your phone is lost, because copies of your email potentially exist in multiple places. With POP3, everything is copied (or moved) and you don't get a choice to only download some messages (after looking at subject lines or sender names) and leave some messages on the server.

AndrewDucker 16y ago

What I find sad is that 90% of the replies are just flaming, they aren't actually trying to explain why they want it. Only a small proportion are saying that it's because it doesn't support email client X.

dstein 16y ago

The condescending attitude Microsoft has for users and developers can also be seen in their responses to Reddit's Q&A with the IE9 team: http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/dk3s0/the_ie9_team_responds_to_your_questions/ http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/dk3s0/the_ie9_te...

Locke1689 16y ago
Yeah, when I was at Microsoft we were really out to get the users and the developers. Are you fucking serious? I expect it at Reddit but not here.
- jey 16y ago
  It's not a conscious decision to be hostile, just an effect of Microsoft's cultural norms and attitudes.
  - Locke1689 16y ago
    It's really not. Do you actually know any Microsoft developers? It's just impolite for people at Microsoft to say: "Reddit says it wants this feature but we haven't implemented this feature. Why? Because we have done a massive user study in the past year on this and there are fewer than 1% of users (power users only) who actually care."
    - btilly 16y ago
      What you say is probably true, but it is severely broken. Let me give an example. If you talk to users, very few will care that IE doesn't support key web standards that every other major browser does, because everyone is going to make things work on IE anyways. However if you talk to users, lots care that it is easy to develop rich web content. However the users don't have the perspective to understand that standards support will get them better web content. Therefore IE decides that better standards support is not a priority. And doesn't implement it. Conversely if IE did decide to implement better standards support, everyone would be better off. However Microsoft wouldn't get much credit for it, because it wouldn't be obvious to users how important Microsoft's role was in making things better. And developers would say, "Finally!" But then curse Microsoft for years anyways because it takes that long to get the old, broken, browsers off of the market. The result? IE is crap. And will remain crap. Indefinitely. And Microsoft is convinced that this is not a problem. (And for them it isn't - except for the also invisible problem that they have developed hiring problems in part because many good developers can't stand that attitude.)

twymer 16y ago

I think this was a negative PR move. Did they really think coming on reddit and saying things like this would be beneficial? I don't see any evidence in this that they actually care about peoples feedback. They just keep getting defensive about their decisions of deleting peoples email, not supporting IMAP etc.

joblessjunkie 16y ago
There's no such thing as bad press. I've read the name "Hotmail" more times today than I had in the past 6 months.
- siddhant 16y ago
  Yes but all of it is in negative connotation. The replies on the thread are downright insulting. Take this for example - http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/ej32l/we_are_the_hotmail_development_team_lets_talk/c18gqth http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/ej32l/we_are_the_hotma... I think the Hotmail team shouldn't have done this, at least not before putting all the basic features in place.
  - twymer 16y ago
    This persons reply shows another example of them clearly ignoring the users they are attempting to reach (the people of reddit). you can turn off the page you see before the inbox if you want by going to options. many people like this because they see highlights of your inbox / networks in one spot. but understand if you don't -we often default logout to MSN since that's where many users come from. However this is something that we always look at. Guys, if your market it people who go to MSN to find the link to their email or through Outlook you shouldn't be surprised that the people of reddit don't like your product.
- twymer 16y ago
  I guess this is a valid point. It reminds those who've forgotten about it that it still exists and is still being worked on.
- 16y ago

jokermatt999 16y ago

Some good lessons about PR can be learned here. For one, don't use your normal marketing tone/marketing speak in a candid Q/A session like this one. The IE9 AMA and this AMA have done more to make me lose respect for Microsoft than anything else I've seen from them (although, I should note that I'm not old enough to have been around in their true "evil empire" style days). If they would actually answer questions honestly and engage the people asking them rather than spewing out the typical bullshit, I'd have gained more respect for them. They aren't acting like they're talking to people here. I don't mind seeing this kind of tone in press releases and such, but don't pretend you're going to give an honest "Ask Me Anything" style Q/A session when it's just free marketing. I think they're shooting themselves in the foot here, mostly. Until the IE9 AMA, I was considering trying it out, but their tone completely turned me off of it.

shub 16y ago
To make a long story short, IE9 is fast but very beta. Now you don't need to try it!
pavel_lishin 16y ago
They sent a marketer to do a developer's job."
- rbanffy 16y ago
  If you observe their history carefully, you will see they do it all the time. I have worked with Site Server 3 in the late 90's and I can assure you no sane developer would have created such a monstrosity. That was, probably, the work of a marketer.
nck4222 16y ago
I agree, and on a related note I think part of it boils down to know your audience. They had marketers going and talk to a group who are largely power users. Of course the audience is going to be disappointed.

csomar 16y ago

I was a Hotmail Fan, until (at 2005-2006) one time, I didn't log for 3 months or so. All my inbox was recycled. I have only 4 Mb of Emails. They are hosting emails, few conversations and accounts information. It messed me up, as I lost lot of info; I decided not to use it again, even though I was happy with the experience (light Email user). I moved to gmail by begging random users to send me an invite. I was amazed with the storage and also with the experience and I still use the same inbox to that day.

sebg 16y ago

A really interesting comment was the following: "To possibly refine the thought: both Microsoft and Google want people to spend time on their sites. Microsoft tries to get people to spend time on their site by giving them reasons to not leave. Google tries to get people to spend time on their site by giving them reasons to come back." Not only for the web but also for life, jobs, health, etc. The google attitude, I would posit, is the right way to live.

ry0ohki 16y ago

It's pretty sad that Hotmail is trying to reach out to the tech community, and their comments and getting so far down voted on Reddit (-500 for one comment at time of writing this)

potatolicious 16y ago
I dislike the downvoting too, but there's a reason for it. People are raising valid critiques about Hotmail (that the Hotmail team specifically asked for!) and their only response was "well, why would anyone want all of that anyways?" They're clueless, that's why they're getting downvoted. Re: their complete and utter cluelessness when it comes to IMAP support, someone basically summarized up the reasoning in a single sentence, that the Hotmail team hasn't realized in years of managing this product: "ActiveSync? srsly? Does it work with my Android phone? With an iPhone? With anything else than Windows?"
- macmaxbh 16y ago
  Yes, because they're actually talking about Exchange ActiveSync. http://windowsteamblog.com/windows_live/b/windowslive/archive/2010/08/30/hotmail-now-supports-push-email-calendar-and-contacts-with-exchange-activesync.aspx http://windowsteamblog.com/windows_live/b/windowslive/archiv... EAS is a protocol specifically for mobile phones, and Android, iPhone, Palm all support it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Exchange_ActiveSync_Clients http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Exchange_ActiveSy...

u48998 16y ago

I'm not a fan/user of Hotmail but what I don't understand is why people compare it to Gmail, or why people compare one service to another? If there are limitations and issues, than discuss on its own merits.

spazmaster 16y ago

I e-mailed Steve Ballmer with this brilliant idea and got a response. Hope he'll get on it. https://skitch.com/danielspronk/rrc2s/inbox-14307-messages https://skitch.com/danielspronk/rrc2s/inbox-14307-messages

pkamb 16y ago

Regarding branding: I had a huge "woah" moment a couple months ago when I realized (via wikipedia) that hotmail = HoTMaiL = HTML. Not sure how much cash would be involved in that acquisition, but @html.com would be a cool rebrand that I think tech-minded people would appreciate.

drlew 16y ago

on hotmail delivery stops after 270 days account expires after 1 year. this doesn't mean there isn't room to improve. its 270 day expiration for gmail, I believe. not sure for others