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I think the easiest thing to forget is what made PHP popular was how easy it was to get started writing software that worked good enough. The barrier to entry w

I think the easiest thing to forget is what made PHP popular was how easy it was to get started writing software that worked good enough. The barrier to entry was incredibly low. It caused a lot of bad code & gave PHP a bad reputation but a lot of good was also made from it. PHP made a lot of careers for developers as they were able to fake it until they made it while learning how to code & providing significant value to a businesses. While PHP is nothing like its former self, most people who developed web apps in the first decade of the century will probably always remember PHP for what it was.

gwbas1c 7y ago
The thing that I like about PHP is that I can mix HTML, code, and database queries into a single file. This is incredibly useful when learning basic web development, even though it doesn't scale for more complicated applications. It's also incredibly useful when trying to bang out a simple experiment.
- juangacovas 7y ago
  And many of us took the jump and refused to do things that way. You're wrong, PHP scales and you CAN do separation of concerns and have pretty, maintanable code, using a framework or not: just a matter of knowing what you are doing
  - barbecue_sauce 7y ago
    It's pretty clear that he meant mixing HTML, code, and database queries into a single file was what didn't scale, not PHP itself.
  - munk-a 7y ago
    I think you're missing the point of the comment - when it comes to prototyping PHP is incredibly easy to whip out a buggy test thingy in minutes that breaks all best practices but still lets you prove a concept or prep a demo.
- strictfp 7y ago
  It also allows you to utilize and extend the full http protocol, something which most "serious" frameworks hinder.
  - wyqydsyq 7y ago
    PHP doesn't have anything to do with the HTTP protocol, Apache/Nginx/etc handle HTTP and simply call your PHP script with some global variables set to values parsed from the HTTP request
    - strictfp 7y ago
      No, but PHP does not get in your way unlike many other web frameworks.
- zer00eyz 7y ago
  In the world of machining people will often build a tool for a job. Its a one off, or something that will rarely if ever be used again. These features of PHP are still eminently useful if you have to do the dirty one off. You can eliminate a massive amount of time pressure (an emergency or time invested vs time saved) if you dont have a ton of overhead that comes with modern frameworks.
pavel_lishin 7y ago
> PHP made a lot of careers for developers as they were able to fake it until they made it while learning how to code & providing significant value to a businesses. Unfortunately it also provided a lot of careers to developers who never got to the "make it" stage.
- godot 7y ago
  I think it's a bit harsh and elitist to label this with "unfortunately"; for developers like the ones you mention, often their goal or aspiration is not to work in a FAANG or silicon valley startup; they want to make a decent living as a developer in their city and this provides that career for them. Many of those companies aren't trying to be the next unicorn, they're just small dev teams trying to maintain a web site for their business.
- virtuexru 7y ago
  Why on earth is that unfortunate? Seems like a positive thing to me, even if some people don't make it to the pinnacle of their craft so what? If someone has gainful employment and meaning in their life I see that as a net positive.
  - pavel_lishin 7y ago
    > Why on earth is that unfortunate? Because many times, they write bad, buggy software. Because other people end up having to maintain it, or fix it, or replace it. Or they release things like plugins that malfunction, but because they're the best out of a set of bad options, end up being the de-facto solution that everyone has to deal with. I'm not talking about people who build software that works ok, but has bad patterns. I'm talking about people who write cash register software that uses floating-point math to do calculations, or Wordpress plugins that fill up error logs with garbage or nearly DDoS sites because they don't understand how to write efficient code. Not that I've done any of the above as an early PHP developer, no sir...

gwbas1c 7y ago

The thing that I like about PHP is that I can mix HTML, code, and database queries into a single file. This is incredibly useful when learning basic web development, even though it doesn't scale for more complicated applications. It's also incredibly useful when trying to bang out a simple experiment.

juangacovas 7y ago
And many of us took the jump and refused to do things that way. You're wrong, PHP scales and you CAN do separation of concerns and have pretty, maintanable code, using a framework or not: just a matter of knowing what you are doing
- barbecue_sauce 7y ago
  It's pretty clear that he meant mixing HTML, code, and database queries into a single file was what didn't scale, not PHP itself.
- munk-a 7y ago
  I think you're missing the point of the comment - when it comes to prototyping PHP is incredibly easy to whip out a buggy test thingy in minutes that breaks all best practices but still lets you prove a concept or prep a demo.
strictfp 7y ago
It also allows you to utilize and extend the full http protocol, something which most "serious" frameworks hinder.
- wyqydsyq 7y ago
  PHP doesn't have anything to do with the HTTP protocol, Apache/Nginx/etc handle HTTP and simply call your PHP script with some global variables set to values parsed from the HTTP request
  - strictfp 7y ago
    No, but PHP does not get in your way unlike many other web frameworks.
zer00eyz 7y ago
In the world of machining people will often build a tool for a job. Its a one off, or something that will rarely if ever be used again. These features of PHP are still eminently useful if you have to do the dirty one off. You can eliminate a massive amount of time pressure (an emergency or time invested vs time saved) if you dont have a ton of overhead that comes with modern frameworks.

pavel_lishin 7y ago

> PHP made a lot of careers for developers as they were able to fake it until they made it while learning how to code & providing significant value to a businesses. Unfortunately it also provided a lot of careers to developers who never got to the "make it" stage.

godot 7y ago
I think it's a bit harsh and elitist to label this with "unfortunately"; for developers like the ones you mention, often their goal or aspiration is not to work in a FAANG or silicon valley startup; they want to make a decent living as a developer in their city and this provides that career for them. Many of those companies aren't trying to be the next unicorn, they're just small dev teams trying to maintain a web site for their business.
virtuexru 7y ago
Why on earth is that unfortunate? Seems like a positive thing to me, even if some people don't make it to the pinnacle of their craft so what? If someone has gainful employment and meaning in their life I see that as a net positive.
- pavel_lishin 7y ago
  > Why on earth is that unfortunate? Because many times, they write bad, buggy software. Because other people end up having to maintain it, or fix it, or replace it. Or they release things like plugins that malfunction, but because they're the best out of a set of bad options, end up being the de-facto solution that everyone has to deal with. I'm not talking about people who build software that works ok, but has bad patterns. I'm talking about people who write cash register software that uses floating-point math to do calculations, or Wordpress plugins that fill up error logs with garbage or nearly DDoS sites because they don't understand how to write efficient code. Not that I've done any of the above as an early PHP developer, no sir...