6 ms·

The most despicable thing besides all these that Boeing did was to start blaming the pilots, trying to use xenophobia and blaming it on 'third world' pilots fir

by ulfw 7y ago

The most despicable thing besides all these that Boeing did was to start blaming the pilots, trying to use xenophobia and blaming it on 'third world' pilots first [1] though it was clear even from the start that there is nothing any pilot could have done so close to the ground [2]. That was disgusting and has me lose the last bit of sympathy I've had left for The Boeing Company. [1] https://www.inc.com/peter-economy/boeing-ceo-puts-partial-blame-on-pilots-of-crashed-737-max-aircraft-for-not-completely-following-procedures.html https://www.inc.com/peter-economy/boeing-ceo-puts-partial-bl... [2] https://www.ft.com/content/db8a09b8-56aa-11e9-a3db-1fe89bedc16e https://www.ft.com/content/db8a09b8-56aa-11e9-a3db-1fe89bedc...

sokoloff 7y ago
This was not just Boeing and was common across wide swaths of professional pilots. Based on conversations with pilots I know and trust and who flew with non-US, non-major-Western European (and Australia) carriers, I’m deeply skeptical of many foreign operators and their realized safety record does not match the US/AU/major EU air carriers. The second crash may have been avoided by timely application of the NNC procedure for runaway stab trim, right?
- inflatableDodo 7y ago
  >This was not just Boeing and was common across wide swaths of professional pilots. One of these two groups was in posession of a rather importantly wider set of information than the other.
- ReGenGen 7y ago
  The 2nd crash would have been prevented by Boeing listening to the American Airlines pilots’ union call to ground the MAX after the 1st crash. You can't put this one on foreign pilots, when American pilots called for grounding the MAX.
  - hitekker 7y ago
    Yeah, first paragraph of the GP was agreeable. Then the second one veered abruptly into weird corporate apologism. "Man if only those "other" victims weren't so dumb, then my favorite company wouldn't have to suffer bad PR!"
    - pellucidar 7y ago
      Pilot error can be (and apparently was) a factor, no matter how at fault Boeing also was, and no matter how understandable the errors may have been under the circumstances. The Lion Air Pilots did not follow the trim procedures that had saved the prior flight, and the Ethiopian pilots didn’t keep their speed under control, among other things.
      - amalter 7y ago
        Didn’t we just have an article yesterday on how difficult it is to recover from this event in a simulator, in which the pilots knew exactly what was wrong and what was going to happen. Blaming the Ethiopian pilots (One of the safest airlines in the world btw) for getting over speed during the workload induced by runaway trim is disrespectful. By now, near every professional pilot agrees that these are near unrecoverable events unless you assess and cut the trim in first 15 seconds or so. Blaming Lion Air in the first hours after the crash, with their somewhat sketchy history, was understandable. Everything after that is uninformed or racist.
        briandear 7y ago
        Racist? The Ethiopian copilot had less than 300 hours total time. In the US, 1500 hours is required. Lion Air’s history of deficient processes is also not a function of race. Pilot standards are much lower in other non-American/non-European countries. The fact that the US flies more and has fewer accidents isn’t “racist” nor lucky.
        ReGenGen 7y ago
        What is Racist is that Boeing is using perceptions about foreign airlines to shift blame and scapegoat... when clearly Boeing was the party trading safety for profit here. Boeing, "the Americans", knew and did nothing. There is no evidence that more flight time or experience would have changed the outcome. Who has 5,000 hrs of MCAS fuck up protocol? Sometimes those with less experience handle new technology better.
  - Simple_Guy 7y ago
    You are rights. All crashes can be prevented by not flying.
- dx034 7y ago
  As far as I understand there was nothing pilots could've done. They were too close to the ground to counteract the trim. They explicitly followed procedures.
- PunchTornado 7y ago
  there's no East vs West Europe in aviation. All EU airlines adhere to the same stric EASA rules.
- bumby 7y ago
  Human factors may have been a contributing issue, but it seems like the root cause was the design/implementation. In most major catastrophes/mishaps, there's a number of proximate causes (i.e. the pilots didn't do 'X') that 'could' have prevented the issue. But focusing on these to the distraction of focus on the root cause is a sure way to increase the risk of another failure. Installing a larger oil pan won't fix your car for long if the root cause is a bad filter design.
FabHK 7y ago
You are not being fair here. Stating that Lion Air has a questionable safety record is not xenophobia, nor is it blaming the pilots when you speak of a chain of events and note that "in some cases, those procedures were not completely followed". > nothing any pilot could have done so close to the ground [2] FWIW, the pilots in the doomed Lion Air plane on the flight just prior to the accident flight did just that. There is enough wrong with the 737 MAX, Boeing, the regulatory regime, etc. No need to become hyperbolic and inaccurate.
- speakeron 7y ago
  > FWIW, the pilots in the doomed Lion Air plane on the flight just prior to the accident flight did just that. Not the pilots so much as the person sitting in the jump seat (who suggested disabling electric trim). It essentially took three pilots to save that plane.
  - jedmeyers 7y ago
    It took one pilot who knew what he was doing.
    - simion314 7y ago
      Did he really knew the MCAS issue? I mean that every time you stabilize the plane it will point it down even harder? The pilots did not know about this problem, they corrected the issue a few time the problem was that after a few correction MCAS corrected extremely and cutting it off at that point was useless because the pilots did not had the physical force to correct the plane. The other pilots that rescued the situation in the simulator did it by using a technique he read on a pilot forum after the crashes, so it is obvious that a regular pilot that was train using Boeing manuals and followed Boeing guidelines for this problems could not save the plane(at least not in 100% of the cases). Sure there may be super pilots (like we have super programmers that can read assembly stack traces) or lucky pilots but you don't want to excuse Boeing crimes by the fact that some pilots were lucky.
      - 7y ago

by ulfw 7y ago

sokoloff 7y ago

This was not just Boeing and was common across wide swaths of professional pilots. Based on conversations with pilots I know and trust and who flew with non-US, non-major-Western European (and Australia) carriers, I’m deeply skeptical of many foreign operators and their realized safety record does not match the US/AU/major EU air carriers. The second crash may have been avoided by timely application of the NNC procedure for runaway stab trim, right?

inflatableDodo 7y ago
>This was not just Boeing and was common across wide swaths of professional pilots. One of these two groups was in posession of a rather importantly wider set of information than the other.
ReGenGen 7y ago
The 2nd crash would have been prevented by Boeing listening to the American Airlines pilots’ union call to ground the MAX after the 1st crash. You can't put this one on foreign pilots, when American pilots called for grounding the MAX.
- hitekker 7y ago
  Yeah, first paragraph of the GP was agreeable. Then the second one veered abruptly into weird corporate apologism. "Man if only those "other" victims weren't so dumb, then my favorite company wouldn't have to suffer bad PR!"
  - pellucidar 7y ago
    Pilot error can be (and apparently was) a factor, no matter how at fault Boeing also was, and no matter how understandable the errors may have been under the circumstances. The Lion Air Pilots did not follow the trim procedures that had saved the prior flight, and the Ethiopian pilots didn’t keep their speed under control, among other things.
    - amalter 7y ago
      Didn’t we just have an article yesterday on how difficult it is to recover from this event in a simulator, in which the pilots knew exactly what was wrong and what was going to happen. Blaming the Ethiopian pilots (One of the safest airlines in the world btw) for getting over speed during the workload induced by runaway trim is disrespectful. By now, near every professional pilot agrees that these are near unrecoverable events unless you assess and cut the trim in first 15 seconds or so. Blaming Lion Air in the first hours after the crash, with their somewhat sketchy history, was understandable. Everything after that is uninformed or racist.
      - briandear 7y ago
        Racist? The Ethiopian copilot had less than 300 hours total time. In the US, 1500 hours is required. Lion Air’s history of deficient processes is also not a function of race. Pilot standards are much lower in other non-American/non-European countries. The fact that the US flies more and has fewer accidents isn’t “racist” nor lucky.
        ReGenGen 7y ago
        What is Racist is that Boeing is using perceptions about foreign airlines to shift blame and scapegoat... when clearly Boeing was the party trading safety for profit here. Boeing, "the Americans", knew and did nothing. There is no evidence that more flight time or experience would have changed the outcome. Who has 5,000 hrs of MCAS fuck up protocol? Sometimes those with less experience handle new technology better.
- Simple_Guy 7y ago
  You are rights. All crashes can be prevented by not flying.
dx034 7y ago
As far as I understand there was nothing pilots could've done. They were too close to the ground to counteract the trim. They explicitly followed procedures.
PunchTornado 7y ago
there's no East vs West Europe in aviation. All EU airlines adhere to the same stric EASA rules.
bumby 7y ago
Human factors may have been a contributing issue, but it seems like the root cause was the design/implementation. In most major catastrophes/mishaps, there's a number of proximate causes (i.e. the pilots didn't do 'X') that 'could' have prevented the issue. But focusing on these to the distraction of focus on the root cause is a sure way to increase the risk of another failure. Installing a larger oil pan won't fix your car for long if the root cause is a bad filter design.

FabHK 7y ago

You are not being fair here. Stating that Lion Air has a questionable safety record is not xenophobia, nor is it blaming the pilots when you speak of a chain of events and note that "in some cases, those procedures were not completely followed". > nothing any pilot could have done so close to the ground [2] FWIW, the pilots in the doomed Lion Air plane on the flight just prior to the accident flight did just that. There is enough wrong with the 737 MAX, Boeing, the regulatory regime, etc. No need to become hyperbolic and inaccurate.

speakeron 7y ago
> FWIW, the pilots in the doomed Lion Air plane on the flight just prior to the accident flight did just that. Not the pilots so much as the person sitting in the jump seat (who suggested disabling electric trim). It essentially took three pilots to save that plane.
- jedmeyers 7y ago
  It took one pilot who knew what he was doing.
  - simion314 7y ago
    Did he really knew the MCAS issue? I mean that every time you stabilize the plane it will point it down even harder? The pilots did not know about this problem, they corrected the issue a few time the problem was that after a few correction MCAS corrected extremely and cutting it off at that point was useless because the pilots did not had the physical force to correct the plane. The other pilots that rescued the situation in the simulator did it by using a technique he read on a pilot forum after the crashes, so it is obvious that a regular pilot that was train using Boeing manuals and followed Boeing guidelines for this problems could not save the plane(at least not in 100% of the cases). Sure there may be super pilots (like we have super programmers that can read assembly stack traces) or lucky pilots but you don't want to excuse Boeing crimes by the fact that some pilots were lucky.
    - 7y ago